Stew Redwine (00:00):
Hit it. Ad Infinitum is the only podcast solely focused on audio

Announcer (00:04):
Ads, advertising

Stew Redwine (00:05):
The creative who make them and are the latest thinking that informs them how the space is evolving. And my favorite part, a roundup of recent audio ads and analysis by yours truly Ad campaign Stu Redwine, VP Creative at Oxford Road and each episode's guest. Welcome to Ad Infinitum, the podcast dedicated to everything audio advertising where we break down the most innovative strategy shaping the future of this medium. This is a special episode in season two where we're going to take a look at the AI driven audio tech with a live demo of IN'S Spec ai and that's why today's guest is a legend in the world of audio. Dave Chachi Dennis, host of the podcast, Chachi loves everybody and president of Bins Town. If anyone knows what makes audio branding tick, it's Chachi. We're gonna break down how IN'S spec AI uses artificial intelligence to help audio creatives do what they do best create. Chachi, welcome to the show

Dave "Chachi" Denes (01:06):
Stu. Thank you so much for having me and very kind of you to say I am a legend. I have listened to many of your episodes and you've had a lot of legends on such as Craig Kitchen and I am far from that pedigree, but very kind of you to say that and thank you for having me on.

Stew Redwine (01:19):
Well I mean anytime your name comes up, similar sort of response to the legendary Craig Kitchen. People always have great things to say. Everybody loves Chachi is what I hear.

Dave "Chachi" Denes (01:28):
<laugh>, you just put a a massive smile on my face. Even be uh, compared to that elk, uh, means a lot. So thank

Stew Redwine (01:34):
You. Oh completely. And you brought a friend.

Dave "Chachi" Denes (01:35):
I did, yeah. Please say hi to Masa. Masa Patterson is our Vice President of Operations and he's joining us from New Haven, Connecticut.

Stew Redwine (01:42):
Hey guys, how are you doing Great. Thank you so much for joining. It's awesome to have you guys both on the show today. And I am especially excited about the hands-on demo. We're gonna be doing something we've talked about doing. I had Oscar surrender from Wonder craft.ai on as well and like we listened to some ads, we graded some ads and it was like wouldn't it be cool to run this surrender craft? And we did it after the fact and then put that into the next episode. That's why I reached out to you. I was like, let's just actually do it like we have the technology so let's just do it and that's what we're gonna focus on instead of doing all the ad breakdowns and all of that. So I think that that's pretty cool and things keep developing for you. Like we were just talking right before the show. So you had a press release that came out today?

Dave "Chachi" Denes (02:20):
We did. We announced this morning that we are now up to 25 station groups with spec ai. So we're primarily as you know, radio, but there's no doubt that there are a lot of similarities between radio and podcasting and a lot of podcasting has been born out of radio. But I do want to note that it is a slightly different pool and so it's really meant to help account executives go out and get lead generations.

Stew Redwine (02:44):
And tell me more about the station groups. You know, 'cause our listeners the chief audio officer, that's the person that's been tasked with making the dollars work in audio and that might be in streaming, that might be in podcasts, it might be in terrestrial radio station groups is one of those that's like what does that even mean to somebody who's maybe the uninitiated?

Dave "Chachi" Denes (03:02):
Yeah, sure. So over the years there's been a lot of consolidation in radio and so you've got more than a handful. But there, you know, are probably a dozen large substantial radio groups that own a large chunk of the radio stations that are out there. And our particular case, some of our biggest clients are Beasley. We also work with Connoisseur. What are some of the other groups that we're working with right now? Masa on the spec AI front.

Masa Patterson (03:23):
Yeah, a lot of the independent operators outside of those two larger groups. Groups like Baton Communications groups like Diamond Shores broadcasting, foster communications, there's a whole ton of those guys.

Stew Redwine (03:34):
Well what I'm getting at is these are when I look on the horizon and I see a radio tower.

Dave "Chachi" Denes (03:38):
Yes.

Stew Redwine (03:39):
A station group is a bunch of those radio

Dave "Chachi" Denes (03:41):
Towers. Yeah, effectively That's correct. It's very common here in Los Angeles that you would have Odyssey or iHeart own update radio stations in a market. And so they can be across several different formats. So each station is a different format, but eight of them can be owned by one group. And when we say formats we mean what we mean top 40, which would be CHR or ac. An example of that would be coast here in Los Angeles or classic its which would be chaos.

Stew Redwine (04:07):
And the songs that we hear on classic hits are not as far back in time as they used to be

Dave "Chachi" Denes (04:10):
Back. Oh by the way, classic stations are playing Nirvana and Pearl Jam,

Stew Redwine (04:14):
No joke. Yes. Stuff we grew up with as kids. Yeah, in five years the eighties will have been 50 years ago. So just let that sink in too. Okay, so let's talk about the future. Okay, so the future is spec ai, so that's great. So 25 station groups and you were pulling out a nuance there that you know like what's been demoed to me and what we're gonna use today is generative AI to make a script from an idea to a finished spot in real time. We're gonna see how that works. You're saying it's also used by these station groups for

Dave "Chachi" Denes (04:41):
Sales? That's correct. So the original intent was to create spec spots. So as an account executive whose job is to go out there and bring new business into the radio station and ultimately convince advertisers, not unlike the podcast business, that audio is a great medium. A lot of times those AEs are going up onto the street to go meet with a local restaurant or a pet store or whatever it may be. And they've got different assets and may be a one sheet, maybe different collateral about the radio station. But we are now allowing them to go armed with a spec spot. So this is a spot that's been custom produced for them so they actually can hear an example of what a radio commercial would sound like that's been built for their company. And so it's been really beneficial for a lot of those groups that we mentioned. And they've seen a lot of increase in new business because of,

Stew Redwine (05:29):
I have to think that the going in position probably on your guys' side, Chachi and Masa is like, well they're gonna make these spec spots and then he's gonna go into, I'm just thinking I'm from Kansas City Sunflower Dodge of Ola and they're gonna go into Sunflower Dodge of Olathe with four spec spots and go, it could sound like this for the Memorial Day sale or for the Father's Day special. And he goes, Hey you know what, I'll just take it. I run. And people are probably just running running the spec spots. Right,

Masa Patterson (05:57):
Exactly how it works. Yeah, they just start sending money right away.

Dave "Chachi" Denes (05:59):
I believe it. There's no doubt that while the intent to get is for spec spots that there have been stations that have been putting these directly on have I always want to be though being that we're from the production side of the business and you're from the production side of the business and that creativity is incredibly important to me. This does not yet replace what humans can do. Is it good? Yes, I think it is good. Is it effective or a lot of these advertisers It is, but there are still some limitations on what it's able to do and what a human could do as a production

Stew Redwine (06:30):
Could do. I agree with you completely. And then there's also like the invisible hand of the market and that's what I was kind of guessing at and then from what I've experienced as well is you see a thing on the shelf, you buy it. So it's like walking into this office with that spot, you press play and they're like, did you have to rethink rights at all? Like where you originally think, oh these are spec spots, it'll never air and now it's like oh my gosh, they want to just air the thing that we did respect things so we need to make sure we've taken care of music rights or voice

Dave "Chachi" Denes (06:56):
Rights. Like what's that been like? Great question. And there are a lot of legal implications we're all still trying to figure out as AI figure out along. But the music in particular is all Bensler music. This is a partnership between Bens town partner, compass Media Networks and MCO Media. So we provide all the music and we provide

Stew Redwine (07:14):
All gotcha. And I think that's a solid position to be in is that it is not being generated because that's the open question right now with generated ai. It's like, what were you referencing and do you have rights to the thing that you were referencing? We all know that's the whole sticky wicket. So it's cool that you guys have a library but you're using the AI then to match it, the tone and the feel to what I want with the spot, like the spot we're about to create exactly like the spot that we're about to make for Oxford Road. So let's do it. And since we're an audio only show, we're gonna be explaining the process as we go, but it's gonna be so fast. You know, we believe as you're listening how quick it goes by and if you wanna see it for yourself, have a demo for yourself, yourself. It's really simple. We'll put this again at the end of this show. You can go to ben town.com, it's B-E-N-Z-T-E-W-N com. But reach out to moa, we'll put his contact information in the show notes, a notes, let's no further make an ad for Oxford Road using spec ai. We go.

Masa Patterson (08:08):
So in the spec AI in the interface, it's really straightforward said, I mean the whole idea is to create these professionally produce and high quality spots that are intended to bring in new revenue and increase business. So you're given the choice. So when you're in here to create a 15 second spot, a three second spot, a 62nd spot, you can create a spot based on having a structure flow where it gives you these fields basically where you type in advertiser name the subject, the notes, you can honestly create it based on a free form prompt where you just write in, hey make me a tweet about this advertiser. It should be about seconds, et cetera, et cetera. So there's a lot of different ways that you can approach it. We're just gonna go through the process of creating it in a structured format where we basically just say, Hey, make us a spot about, make here some details. Go said we're gonna do this for Oxford Road. So really straightforward, it's gonna say, hey gonna write in Oxford Fort Road, what's the advertisement about? Honestly, what I do a lot of times is I'll go to the website to the the business that we're making the spot for and just grab the quick info from there.

Stew Redwine (09:11):
Let's see what you find. Let's see what see you find about Oxford Road. Quickly visited our website, quickly

Masa Patterson (09:17):
Visited our website. There's a tagline on the page that basically says, hey, we're pioneers of performance pioneer. It has a nice ring to it, it has a nice ring to it. I'm gonna stop. So after you get a tagline or main subject line, basically you can put a little additional color commentary in there and that's really what comment's gonna give in there. And that's really what's gonna give the granular detail that you're looking for. It's really the creative notes, right? The creative notes. There's a mission statement on the website, so let's put that in there. The mission statement is basic that to companies worth fighting for companies best in fighting, best in market performance. That viable performance at maximum viable scale. Maximum viable scale guy. And then you know, you scroll down, there's a couple and kind of tell you about the company. I'm gonna add a company more color commentary in there.

(10:01):
Let's see here. Okay, with our rich foundation and audio, our team of cross channel performance experts drive every channels perform units channel. What I'm doing here is essentially just doing here is data to ingest data to a spot with the info you put in, the better the info result you're gonna get the better result. Bunch of info into the creative notes there. It's gonna ask creative website, it's gonna just grab website URL here for Doc Oxford review do com, pretty straightforward.com. That in, you can put it in a writing style, you can go uplifting style and then once you've got the info and then once you've got the info generate ad forward and in real time, it's now gonna give us, which now gonna give three different scripts, three different 32nd lengths, 30 tells you the word counts. The the, it gives you the opportunity to review opportunity to be review you in the interest of time.

(10:51):
We don't need to review script review, I just pick a number between one and three. I just pick a number between and 3, 2, 2. Here we we're two. Two, this is a live form. So once this is a live copy, you can make any copy edit that you want. You can rev this in any way that you revise this in. So if you read a here, so in the script where it's not really how we would say things, this brand would say change that brand, we can change everything is perfect the way it came out. And then we just move on to the, and then we just essentially creating which is essentially with. So where we're gonna now unlock a, we're gonna now the pronunciation details in the vo. This in the vo, this is where can create this is you can actually create for pronunciation a particular pronunciation.

(11:33):
Anytime its a website, anytime the sees a road com text as a, so maybe the jerry I strip maybe the Gen Oxford Road period. Oxford. We need to actually make sure the rules need to actually make suret, cmt et. There's all kinds of these rules. There's kinds of these rules you can create some of these phrases, some of these words, phrases, some of these, these words are gonna have, regionals are gonna have regional pron. You can get specific with those. That specific point those. So it looks like point, everything in this spot is pretty straightforward in this spot is pretty straightforward. Might trip off or the gen might I trip up. So the gen want to choosing an actual voice to choosing an actual voice. Got ton of different voices. Male female voices. Male female choices them. You can basically sample the voices and kind see what your voice is and kind see you're working. She express, this is Jennifer. Wait, I've got some thoughts. Do you have someone from across the have someone from across the pond? Some accents in here

Stew Redwine (12:28):
For sure. Some accents around for sure. I think when I think of the Oxford brand, I think of, I've been doing some brand discussions, been about this, discussions about this stuff. Female like an approachable like English, an approachable voice, warm English, female voice. Sophisticated. Sophist. Exactly. Sophisticated.

Masa Patterson (12:43):
Let's go. This is like here, here's like here, here's Sophia into the future of marketing, into the future of marketing excellence. Lets Sophia, let's go wisdom. Sophia. Yes. Her name means wisdom. Wisdom, yes. Her name means wisdom. Sophia. So we're gonna got your voice. Once you got your voice you hit couple seconds, a couple of seconds. Now it's gonna give vo script. Sophia give here. And so give can give a quick listen now we can give it a quick

Announcer (13:08):
Listen. Not the power of performance audio. The power of performance. Audios performance audio. The pioneers of performance champion brands worth fighting. Champion by delivering for, by delivering best in scale at maximum viable scale. Expert team harnesses a audio foundation harnesses a rich audio foundation. Expertise to channel every channel in harmony. Every harmony. Your stands for something. If stands in journey, join us this thrive and watch your company thrive. Step into the future of marketing, the future of marketing road com at Oxford Road, lets make your brand unforgettable. Let's make your brand unforgettable,

Masa Patterson (13:41):
Right? There's Sophia there, sorry, there's Sophia there. At this point you at this point a can theoretically download and produce externally, produce music externally if they've music that they will use inside as mentioned inside. Hold on

Stew Redwine (13:56):
Maa, I've got question hold on my mind. So I've got, I'm just getting into getting into audio. Quite understand, didn't quite understand what's audio,

Masa Patterson (14:05):
What's dry audio. Audio is with no and no music. No music behind it. Just the straight. So if someone audio,

Stew Redwine (14:16):
Audio, just a human audio just sound effects. No music, no sound effects. Show music not that it's dry like Ben, not that it's dry like Ben Stein. Correct because that's dry audio too because that's dry

Dave "Chachi" Denes (14:29):
Audio production allows the level production wanna change music level out or they want to add the music out or they wanna add sound effects. So that file allows them to being dry allows them to make edit any sort of manipulation or edits

Stew Redwine (14:40):
To. So that's first stop on the road, that's the first stop on the road. Keep going. If we wanted to just keep going and add some music along and can we into it keep moving along and

Masa Patterson (14:47):
Music into it. Absolutely. Have a of product options and production music inside the platform a number criteria. Criteria users can choose. We've got based on tempo, on key, you can select D users' a lot of different ways that users can find what's gonna work.

Dave "Chachi" Denes (15:06):
Deline got delineated by because a lot as well because a lot of our users as I mentioned are radio, sometimes the radio station, sometimes the radio station wants the format of the station match the format of the station. Probably want, unlike that you want by a spot that was read by let's say a different than maybe a sound different that than maybe by a Alex spot that was read

Stew Redwine (15:26):
By you were saying also. And you were saying also also seasonality. It sounds like there's some seasonality in there as well.

Dave "Chachi" Denes (15:31):
Absolutely. We've got Halloween. We've got Halloween for Thans and not a lot of Thanksgiving, A lot of unfortunately, but a lot of Christmas in there.

Stew Redwine (15:37):
Thanksgiving come on. How many Thanksgiving movies are there? Train That's and I wanna be honest's cool. I want be honest too, like with the listeners, we actually paused on this bit little bit to i it illuminating and I think it's illuminating that how can music can be, what I like about you can go is that you can go a few different options. Like if you're a few different options, like you're not sure you've got approvals, let's say you the chief audio op of C, I've gotta take this, take it to CMO or I've gotta take it to recommendation would be, my recommendation would be I try things like we're all gonna take everybody through that. We're not gonna take everybody through let's, well let's try acoustic, let's try let, try classical. We wanna over the map because to kind of explore because just trying to be one and done is difficult

Dave "Chachi" Denes (16:22):
Prospect and create. What I love about the a I love about the ad infant item is that you've really got an infinite look at all the music. You look at all the different music and all the different copy choices that you can get. And as well as all of the different voices mean the same copy really make the same copy or the same music sound, the same invoice sound combination. An infinite amount of combinations.

Stew Redwine (16:43):
Exactly. And I used to be cynical about sound more acceptance is the answer to all my problems. People say creative people will say that creative approve know what I, I don't know what I like but I know what I don't like and that used to rub me the wrong way. Now I'm like okay that means I need to show that person. So that means I need to show that person

Dave "Chachi" Denes (16:58):
Six or seven. I had a mentor as did MOA who used to second to us, no is the second best

Stew Redwine (17:03):
Answer. It kind of get some creative, it can kind of get some creatives and I know for me you know it's got me, well you need to if the other person, if the other person's the problem, there is no solution. So we picked a song, what's next

Masa Patterson (17:16):
After? So we picked a song, what's next after the song? So once you've got the song lined up, it's really straightforward. You just mix the audio. Audio. I was talking about dry audio before right now we've got just the voice, we've got the song chosen, we click a button and it says mixed audio and now we in a second or two we've got our fully mixed down music spot with music and voice that you know theoretically is ready for prime time.

Stew Redwine (17:40):
And what I'm seeing here, because I can see the screen and anyone who's listening can do a demo and experience this themselves with is I'm seeing what's really cool about after you did the mixed audio, I like in the user flow here is that I can download the dry and the mix. Like it didn't move me past the dry. Oh now I gotta go back and get that. I like that you've got both options here.

Dave "Chachi" Denes (18:00):
You've got 'em both. And if you don't like our something custom, you wanted to create something custom on your side to allows having that dry track allows you to do.

Stew Redwine (18:07):
Alright, well let's take a listen to finished product. All right, well let's take a listen to the finished product. Here we go.

Announcer (18:10):
Unlock the power of performance audio, the road, the pioneers of performance audio. We champion brands worth fighting for by delivering best in market performance at maximum viable scale. Harness our e harnesses, a rich audio foundation and cross channel expertise to ensure every channel sings in harmony. If your brand stands for something extraordinary, join us in this journey and watch your company thrive. Step into the future of Into the future of marketing excellence com at oxford road com. Brand unforgettable. Let's make your brand unforgettable.

Stew Redwine (18:42):
Oh, I love it. I love the cinematic. Oh I love it. I love the cinematic feel. It made me want to cut to like a montage of us in the early days of building. You see like all the meetings we'd have on top of the CN building that never happened but would work. We gotta make that work. Gladiator, brave and gladiator Spinning shots. Yeah, spinning shots of us and then calling Craig Kitchen on the on the bat. Signal him stand up.

Dave "Chachi" Denes (19:09):
Well that is really cool. I mean imagine as an account executive and sometimes I feel that AEs are not given that to due respect. I'm going back to the founder of your company who started as an account executive and honestly probably the best I'd ever seen do that business to be able to walk into a meeting and have a spot already ready to play for them. Even though if that spot doesn't go directly on the air, it shows that you took the time to do the research, that you really understand what their company's about and you get them vested in the process of coming up and helping with their creative process.

Stew Redwine (19:41):
Yes, and that is huge. There's a guest that we had on a infinitum, Phil Agnew, who has a podcast called Nudge, and it's all about behavioral science. One of the big cognitive biases he talks about is the labor illusion. The perception of the work that has gone into something translates value. So to me it's like showing up with a finished spot or being able to play a sample spot transfers value over to the person on the other side of the table that they're like, oh, you put time and care and energy into this. And I think as we're proving here, even in our quote, we did go through that quickly, which was cool, but we were thoughtful about it. We were thoughtful about getting the voice and the type of the music that we're able to use. The problem with generative AI stuff to me is the problem with advertising, which is humans make really dull advertising. A lot of advertising is really dull and generative AI just empowers us to make more dull advertising quicker. But it also empowers you to be thoughtful and intentional and we were thoughtful and intentional about that going through that using spec ai. But it was a heck of a lot quicker than if we had to have gotten VO and gotten music another way.

Dave "Chachi" Denes (20:45):
For sure. You're taking a, that probably would take you at the minimum several hours. So knocking that out in a few minutes, yes. Again, this product doesn't necessarily make the air or make the podcast, but it is a great way to get someone interested and to get started with that creative process. And I think by the way, you are a hundred percent correct about some of the dangers about AI and being a production company first creative is so incredibly important to me. I want to make sure that everything that goes on the air is really great content. It's not unlike a musician, no one who shows up to work wanting to do a crummy job or to put something out that's subpar in this business. And it's vital to me that we use AI to create better products, better audio, and hopefully get more people engaged both in podcasting and in radio with the power of audio.

Stew Redwine (21:32):
For sure. And Maa, from your seat, as you guys are continuing to work on the product and make it better and better, what's next?

Masa Patterson (21:39):
I mean there's so many features in this platform that you know, we didn't even scratch and like you said, there's almost an art to utilizing the AI platform in that, you know, we probably went first level depth in doing this in just a couple of minutes and each step of the way you can manipulate a bunch of different levers or options or things that you can do to change inflection of the voice, cadence of the voice, all kinds of different stuff. So you know, there's also features where you can create a spot just by putting in the website of a business and then instantly it's gonna create everything we just created. So there's all kinds of stuff you can do with it that again, we just barely scratched, but as you know, everyone knows the technology's moving so quickly so that way you know the products are moving quickly too.

Stew Redwine (22:21):
No question. And to your point, this was a good demonstration to sort of pull back the curtain and just go, Hey, let's do it live, we'll do it. But to your point, like at Oxford Road we have a messaging structure that we use that we've developed over the years. It's 71 sub components, nine key components called Audio lytics. That's a list of 71 different elements of a persuasive message that are either present or not present. I was just explaining it to somebody earlier today. I mean it is very simple, but with the power of Claude or with Chat or with Gemini, you're able to take that formula and help craft a message and polish a message and make it even better. So for instance, with Spec or with Wonder Craft or with whatever the solution might be, you can use the audio lytics prompt to get to a better sharper outcome. But what I hope people hear in seeing this is that whether it is add those or Spec or Wonder Craft or Audio Stack or one of the other choices that are out there, that the tools are now very much at your fingers to be able to put the idea together and press play. And to me, I found that unlocks the investment easier than having something on a piece of paper that ultimately is supposed to live in somebody's ear.

Dave "Chachi" Denes (23:32):
I a hundred percent agree with you. All of a sudden it becomes something that's real intangible. And we live in a world because we're creatives, we can hear these things, but so many business owners are really focused on what it is that they're doing and that's what they live, drink, and eat all day long. And we expect them sometimes as we go in there to just understand right away. And that'd be almost like the flip of us understanding their business right away, which I think a lot of us probably wouldn't. And so this is just a great way to get people introduced to audio.

Stew Redwine (23:59):
No question. It's like everybody here, it's like we look at a script and can think of the music and the sound effects and the voice and what that would sound of it. I was trying to think of like something that it's like almost like if you're talking to an electrical engineer, have you ever seen like one of those blueprints of like a building I'm sure you have 'cause of your office. Sure. And it's got the lines and the little numbers and the squiggly and they're like, well yeah, you can see right there that to circuit and that's why that light's and it's like, what is that? You know? And they can't connect it. So when you can walk into a person's office and press play, and I love what you said, you and Masa's mentor that no is the second best answer. You can press play and they could hate it, but then it's like you're that much closer. Yes. I think that's closer than having it on paper and them not liking what's on paper.

Dave "Chachi" Denes (24:42):
I agree. And then you can start to get their feedback on how to build something that does work for them.

Stew Redwine (24:47):
Yeah. And they could be like, well I admit like it would sound more like <laugh>, Stu Scatting. Can that be an additional, just

Dave "Chachi" Denes (24:55):
Like Justin Timberlake, I couldn't tell the difference. <laugh> <laugh>.

Stew Redwine (24:59):
Well thank you guys so much for this.

Dave "Chachi" Denes (25:01):
Thank you buddy. That was awesome. Thank you Stu.

Stew Redwine (25:03):
Where can they find out more about Bens town and Spec ai? Where could they get a demo and all that good stuff?

Dave "Chachi" Denes (25:09):
On our website@benstown.com, that's B-E-N-Z-T-O-W n.com. Or feel free to email masa at mp, that's M as in Mary, P as inPaul@benstown.com and he'd be happy to uh, give anyone a demo and a trial.

Stew Redwine (25:22):
Awesome. Thank you both so much. This has been a ton of fun. And thanks again to the silent and strong Darren Silva who is here every time I do a Bens Town recording. And remember everybody out there listening to have fun making the ads work.