Stew Redwine (00:00:00):
This is Add Infinitum.

(00:00:18):
Add Infinitum is the award-winning podcast solely focused on audio ads, the creatives who make them and or the latest thinking that informs them how the space is evolving. And my favorite part, a roundup of recent audio ads with Analysis by yours truly, stew Redwine and each episode's guest. This is season three, episode one of Ad infinitum titled Audio Is For the Children About Kids and Family shows the creative process involved in the unique alchemy of advertising for kids and family in an audio environment. So for this special episode, I'm thrilled to welcome Jeremy Westfall and Deborah Goldstein from Gen Z Media. Thank you guys so much for joining.

Deborah Goldstein (00:00:59):
Thank you so much for having us.

Stew Redwine (00:01:00):
Thank you so much for having us. This is great. You're very welcome. Gen Z media stands at the forefront of children's and family podcasting, creating award-winning narrative fiction that captures young imaginations through partnerships with the industry giants like Apple Podcast, PRX and Wondery. And with hits like six minutes in the unexplainable disappearance of Mars Patel, GZM has established itself as a powerhouse in kids and family and young adult audio entertainment specializing in immersive stories that make family time more in engaging. As the advertising lead at Gen Z Media and host of the Big Fib podcast, Debra Goldstein is well versed in the world of production. She has worked at such companies like WNYC, rebel Girls and now Gen Z Media and Jeremy Westfall is currently serving as the director of partnerships, advertising, strategy and creative services over at Gen Z Media with career work in audio and podcasting across heavy hitters such as CBS, comedy Central and Nickelodeon. Over at Paramount, formerly Viacom. Jeremy is no stranger to the ever changing media landscape. Debra and Jeremy, welcome again to Add Infinitum. I am grateful to have you both here on the podcast today. I'm happy to be here.

Deborah Goldstein (00:02:11):
Grateful to be here. Yes, thank you.

Stew Redwine (00:02:14):
We're all so grateful. So welcome. And this came about because on the side I've put together a fiction podcast called Gypsy Vampire Slayers from Kansas Gypsy Vampire Slayers from Kansas that we'll be finishing up this spring. And that's how I met up with Jeremy. So as we were getting ready for the show, we did a pre-show and in our conversations we were talking about fiction podcasts or even kids and family podcasts and the quick expectation of podcasts, which is something Jeremy brought up, it just doesn't include these genres. Aww. And that is something that I see come up time and time again. It's wild that in podcasting it still feels like something that's somewhat on the outside, but if like you've gotten into it, you're really into it. But it's all spoken word and really it's all storytelling. That's what's going on with our favorite hosts when we're leaning in and listening. It's the stories that they tell. It's the spinning of a yarn using the theater of the mind regardless of how you categorize it. And that's like when we were leading up to this show, some of what was kind of challenging was like looking at advertisers in Magellan, you've got kids and family, you've got fiction, like there's some crossover. Why do you guys think that that is when it comes in particular to fiction in podcasting, why it's still a bit of an undiscovered country?

Jeremy Westphal (00:03:28):
My opinion is that it's difficult to really put your finger on from an advertiser point of view. Podcasting can be viewed as talking heads, people talking to each other, or it could be viewed as audio documentaries or it could be news stories like this American Life. But scripted audio or audio drama is still relatively newish. I mean people know about it, people know about it because there's been huge hits. There's been a bunch of shows that've been turned to HBO series, but people aren't listening en masse as much as the regular stuff. You know, just like people aren't watching TV show game shows as much as other shows. But we have this fantastic corner of podcasting that isn't taken over, isn't super commercialized that we are hitting home runs over and over again with younger audience, scripted fiction, with game shows, with young adult scripted fiction GZM shows is just really cornering the market for this particular audience type. And people aren't catching on yet. It's growing. But with all things that are great, sometimes it just takes time. It just takes time

Stew Redwine (00:04:33):
For sure. And we've talked about this before on that infinitum that I think that there is a broad behavior happening in our society, let's say in the modern us, in the mainstream culture that is going, wow, these devices, these screens, particularly when it comes to raising children, are poison a poison apple. And so then where do you go? Well it's natural to go to audio and kind of go back in time like it was a long time ago. And that's something where you can do co-listing and listen to stuff. Like I was saying this morning, I was listening to the Big fib. I mean Debra, how do you look at Gen Z media at that intersection of fiction and kids and family and audio?

Deborah Goldstein (00:05:13):
Yeah, I think that just to piggyback on what Jeremy was saying, true that from an advertiser's perspective, it might be few and far between these scripted fiction podcasts that they're looking at. But when you're talking to the consumers, you're talking to parents, kids, educators, families, they know we know of these shows because of that very reason Stu, that we're looking for content that our kids can listen to when they're in the car going to school and back going to activities and back in the classroom where you can actually use scripted fiction to supplement curricula and shows that everyone can listen to together. That's what Disney used to be when we had one television and we all would gather around the TV and we knew that too. This is, I'm dating myself here, but once upon a time children in my generation, we would pop the popcorn and watch the movie of the week on Disney and all gather around. We all knew that that was a place that we could watch together. And I think that's the challenge is that all of our consumption of media is so individualized these days. But where there is an opportunity for co-listing in the car or at home when we're listening on speaker altogether, we need an alternatives to screens. And that's where audio comes in loud and clear, literally on podcasts.

Jeremy Westphal (00:06:35):
If I could jump in to say Deborah is totally right, we have a lot of people listening in the car, we have a lot of people listening in devices at home, home speakers. We just did a partnership with Yo Oto because yo Oto has a huge audio file or people who really want to co-listing with their kids and we're seeing numbers increase because of that and that option for families to listen together wherever that place may be. We wanna be there, we wanna help make family entertainment, we wanna make general entertainment

Stew Redwine (00:07:03):
And there's a lot to talk about. A couple of things that I want to touch on and ask you guys about. One is with the growth of smart speakers, this is more of an observation or you know, just even from the red wine household of like we'll make a phone tree or recently even got this thing that we can put all our phones in and it's timed so they're locked up and I'm like, get that, you know, break glass in case of emergency <laugh>. But we're doing more with that with like disciplined time of like if it's good for the gander's, good for the goose. None of us are on our phones. Well the smart speaker's still right there and I'm thinking for anybody that's experiencing these same things where it's like oh this thing is gross since smart speaker sales have gone up, it's easy then to ask it to play something. Or even on your television you can listen to something. I think a couple of things I want to ask about is as Podcasting's becoming more video, how do you guys look at, well we want to turn our programming into video. So it has a video component or you're like, no we stay in audio, we wanna keep it as an audio program. I mean how do you think about that with the drive towards, with Spotify and YouTube having the video component when it comes to podcasting?

Jeremy Westphal (00:08:04):
Deborah and I were actually talking about this earlier, we really want to pay attention to our audience and serve our audience wherever they are. GCM shows has got a YouTube page with lots of the shows and it's been up there for a very long time and that super serves a lot of the younger audiences that are on YouTube all the time. But it also helps another part of our audience, which is like the educators and teachers who use that YouTube page in their classrooms with their lesson plans that we helped create on the website, that we made lesson plans for teachers. And so just like I was saying before with the home speakers, the smart speakers, we have a huge audience with Alexa speakers. So it's like we want to make content that's great and we want to meet the audience where they are. And that means, you know, knowing the audience, knowing how they listen in cars on Alexa, on YouTube and make sure that we have a presence there. But ultimately we make great audio fiction, we make great audio game shows, we make great audio educational shows. And so the content is super important and being adaptable so that we can be somewhere is important as well.

Deborah Goldstein (00:09:04):
Yeah, we're still audio first is what you're saying. And so even though kids are accessing our podcasts on YouTube, they're accessing all their podcasts and lots of different types of media on YouTube. YouTube just becomes the destination where they can find their media, be it video or audio. We are not currently in the business of creating video for YouTube. We are creating audio that our users can access through YouTube or wherever they access their shows. That said, oftentimes podcasts are the basis for development to other shows that are specific to video. Disney picked up the streaming rights for the big fib and we developed with Disney and we developed a show that was the big fib, but specifically for video. But it wasn't, you know, we didn't just put the audio on screen, we didn't create animation around the audio. We developed a whole new show for Disney.

Jeremy Westphal (00:10:04):
And I think being authentic to the medium that we're on is pretty important. When there's a big Fib TV show, it's the big fib TV show. When we're making videos for YouTube, they're specific for YouTube. You know, we try to make the thumbnails in a very YouTube way. Some of them are a little animated, but what's important is the story. What's important is the narrative that our CEOs and head writers are writing and they're really pouring their all into the stories, into the action to the audio adventure. And we wanna try and get that audio adventure anywhere we can that's most authentic.

Stew Redwine (00:10:36):
And you guys are doing a great job. I mean I'm a big fan of audio first, obviously you know, this is audio first. You know, there's no video component to add infinitum and I think there will be a place for that. And I think that these things, all the channels change over time, but we've still got live theater to be or not to be. That is the question. And I remember since the internet like newspapers are dead, I mean that one's pretty well done, but there's still stuff in print. So the channels change. But knowing where you're coming from and knowing you know, why you're making it. And I think something that's interesting from an advertising standpoint, like I was sharing with you guys before is this was a few years ago and we would listen to this show, the Stories podcast and my daughter came up to me one time, my youngest daughter came up to me and she was like, Hey do you use ZipRecruiter at work? Which was funny for a couple reasons 'cause like one their competitor of one of our main clients. So I'm like, what's going on with this? Like did they do a psyop on my daughter <laugh>? And I go, well why? She goes, well because they're the smartest way to hire <laugh> <laugh>. And then I realized, I was like, yeah they were advertising in the Stories podcast and just you guys know that, you know that like Jeremy, we were talking in the prep that you know there are adults and purchasers in the room listening to your shows.

Jeremy Westphal (00:11:48):
Yes. Like we were talking about, we endeavor to make content that is for the audience. You know, we make the ads for the people who are the purchasers, the wallet holders, the decision makers and you know, we're trying to talk to them 'cause they're co-listing, they're in the room and we're you know, very conscious of that effort. Whether it be having some of the ads have a little bit more of a sort of soundscape to it music in the background or just being very upfront with hey this show is brought to you by this, thank you. Like thank them like they're really helping us out and they're helping you out. We really try to be upfront and honest and authentic when talking to the audience that matters most.

Stew Redwine (00:12:26):
And Deborah, I know you've been in programming for children for quite a while as well. It also comes with constraints that are good constraints. I mean you're under more scrutiny. Can you talk about that?

Deborah Goldstein (00:12:35):
Absolutely. Well family content co-listing, we have to make sure that our audience trust that whenever they tune in, whether they're listening to our actual content or an ad, that it's going to be safe. That it's not going to offend anybody. So the standards are high. We having been working with children's content creators for quite some time, we are always thinking of those people who are gonna write the letters, right? Whether that, not necessarily putting a stamp on them but sending the emails and saying how could you, you know, what were you thinking when, et cetera, et cetera.

Stew Redwine (00:13:10):
Yes. How dare you. Shame on you.

Deborah Goldstein (00:13:14):
Exactly. Those voices are in my head. I remember once upon a long, long time ago I was working for Nickelodeon in another capacity, but I remember there was someone who wrote a letter about how dare we show a child whose belly button is showing, uh, et cetera, et cetera. And you know, these are the things that are <laugh> that are stuck in my head all the time. So we are protecting our audiences and we really want to consider the most protective denominator of audience, right? We wanna make sure that nobody is gonna be writing in telling us, shaking their fist and asking us how dare we, which means that we have already an audience who trusts us and that means they trust our voices, they trust the people who are producing the shows, who are hosting the shows, even the characters, the voice actors who are voicing the characters. We've established a trust with them already and that is something that I know is exceedingly important to brands.

Stew Redwine (00:14:08):
And I think that's so interesting in this channel that is not regulated by the FCC and as it's developed, that's been a thing that's really cool for adult content. I had a friend of mine once for Mark on that idea of like adult content that it's like, it's not mature. Everything we call adult, we should probably call juvenile <laugh> <laugh>, you know, it's like that's what's going on. Like truly adult would be like you know the Economist, you know like grown up,

Jeremy Westphal (00:14:35):
Welcome back to the morning news with ad infinitum.

Stew Redwine (00:14:38):
Anyway, I think it's honorable that essentially it sounds like you're holding yourself to the same FCC standards as if you were doing this for the radio or television for children. Though I do have to admit some ignorance when it comes to advertising to children on podcast where those lane lines are or even what body you answer to.

Deborah Goldstein (00:14:56):
That's a great question.

Jeremy Westphal (00:14:57):
Well the way that I, having worked at Nickelodeon as well, they are terrified of crossing that invisible line. Cruel they not, they are so conscientious of everything that's out there. And I brought that mentality with me to GZM shows and that's why we are incredibly careful with the brand categories for all of the things that are running both with our own made ads and with the programmatic ads. We also vet each individual brand to make sure that it matches what we need to do. Because what's incredibly important is our audience trust as well as our brand safety because GZ M'S been around since, gosh what was it? Uh, 20 16 20 18 we're in for the long haul. So we're not going to just sort of make a quick buck and run. We are really trying to earn the trust for long-term sustainability both with our audience but also with the brands that we wanna play with.

(00:15:54):
And so we QC every single day. We make sure that things sound right and match what the audience tone is and we jump in and we talk to our programmatic partners, we jump in and we turn things on and off all the time and we make sure that we are really sort of holding our audience sacred and safe. Because to be honest, like I have kids I co-listing, I'm a huge fan of scripted fiction. My partner works in education, like those are like the three main audiences that we found are in GS M shows. And I would want to be just as careful and respectful to other people as I want to be treated myself. So I'm very lucky in my position here at GZM because I

Deborah Goldstein (00:16:32):
Well we're not necess I'm sorry. Sorry Jerry.

Jeremy Westphal (00:16:34):
No, go ahead. Jump in, jump in. Deborah, were you gonna say something?

Deborah Goldstein (00:16:36):
Well, just to say, just before I forget because I'm of the age where I forget if I don't say something so I'm apologizing but I'm not really sorry but to say that we are really self-policing <laugh>. So to answer your questions too, I don't even know if we are afraid of any particular organization or body to come and yell at us for doing anything in particular. But the self-policing is actually, I'd say we probably are even more strict than anybody else would be just because we have that direct connection with our audiences. They email us, they send us voicemail messages, they answer surveys. We are in constant communication with them and they're gonna tell us what they don't like before any governing body does and therefore it's almost unnecessary. I think in our case that's the way I see it anyway.

Jeremy Westphal (00:17:20):
Deborah's correct. A lot of our audience communicates to us directly through the comments of our shows. They've commented on a lot of the ads that our voice of network talks about and they're like, Hey wait, this person talked about their cat. What kind of cat is it? I have a cat. And so they actually respond to a lot of the ads and a lot of the content directly in the comments on Spotify on Apple. It's crazy like the amount of interactivity and interconnected aspect that our audience has with our show, with our spokesperson Jess is our voice of network. Who the comes from that does the bulk of the ads and hosts their own show. That's the behind the scenes director commentary. People reach out and talk and react to the ads and it's wild. And so like as much as we are trying to not get in trouble or not have anybody have any major oversight, the main thing we're really holding ourselves responsible to, at least from my point of view, is our audience. Like we want to really do what's best for them.

Stew Redwine (00:18:14):
That's outstanding. That's the way to be. So say we all, hopefully that's a great

Jeremy Westphal (00:18:19):
<laugh>

Stew Redwine (00:18:20):
Place to come through. My wife and I just did this parenting course which you know with a junior in high school and a freshman, it's like, uh, a little late. Anyway, it's been really helpful and

Deborah Goldstein (00:18:30):
No, believe me you've got, you've got lots to look forward to. Believe me. <laugh>.

Stew Redwine (00:18:33):
Yeah, what I liked about it is it had this pyramid and at the top of it was correcting bad behavior in the sense of like the poignant, like that's the last thing. The foundation was relationship and there's some other stuff but the broad strokes that relates to this is relationship teaching, good behavior, correcting bad behavior. So it's like you guys have that foundation where you're like you have a relationship with your audience, you don't need a government body to keep you in check. I will say as being a part of podcasting over the last 12 years, we've come up against some things as it's grown up and it's interesting that you know, it's audio, it's spoken word and in many ways this has been around for a century. Even though it's fundamentally the big change is that it's on demand versus broadcast. Okay. But there's a lot of other stuff. There's been exploration but you can go back to like at least use as a reference point, well what are the rules over there and let's hold ourself to that and then where is that coming from? Which is exactly what you guys are doing, which is audio is for the children, yay. We gotta look out for them and not degrade that trust of the audience 'cause that's number one in a audio. So before we get into breaking down some of your guys' ads, which is what we were gonna listen to and

Deborah Goldstein (00:19:42):
Can I just add to your pyramid though too?

Stew Redwine (00:19:44):
Oh please, yes.

Deborah Goldstein (00:19:45):
Just to say that, not just to provide for them but to listen to them too. I'm guessing that your parenting course, or at least should have done with older kids is the ability to listen back and to be, you know, managing up, right?

Stew Redwine (00:20:00):
Yes. Huge.

Deborah Goldstein (00:20:00):
Right? So to create that authentic relationship between yourself and the listeners, you can't have all the answers and you have to be open to change and tweak and listen to what they have to say.

Stew Redwine (00:20:11):
Well and that's what I'm hearing you guys say and then also just from like it's one thing to hear you say it, but then in listening to your shows running up to this episode, like I hear the ads that you have for the surveys that you do, multiple ads for multiple surveys. So you put your money where your mouth is. What are some other folks that come to mind for you that you've heard that do this well

Jeremy Westphal (00:20:29):
That really connect with their audience? For me? Oh man. Story Pirates for the really younger family audience, they used to do the most entertaining ads. They used to do basically like 30 seconds to two minute sketches, uh, about certain things. And it was just in character. They were being silly, they were being themselves but they were being authentic. And there was one in particular that my partner and kids who loved them talking about baby bell cheese. And so like they made it fun like they'd made it so I didn't wanna skip the ad because the ad was just as entertaining as the show. The ad was part of the show, the ad was them and I wanted to listen to it. It was great. Kudos to those guys.

Stew Redwine (00:21:05):
Yeah and that's fun because it's another expression of like a host red spot where people who are, let's say they're advertising a podcast and they're used to maybe more of a sports program or a news program, it's the same dynamic at play in that it fits the content. They're doing it in the style of the show, like for a more grownup audience like Ad Lucian we had talked about and that was better Help on Q Code where they'd done the integration where the AI bot is like, Hey can you, you know, help get me schedule a therapy appointment or whatever. And that was a cool integration where it felt like part of the program.

Jeremy Westphal (00:21:37):
I listened to that, it was great. Another one that is adult scripted fiction that did something similar Dark Air, it was a scripted series by Ray Wilson and he did, his character was like a radio host and as a radio host he did radio ads for Helix Mattress and it was in the world and it was so funny. And then, uh, scripted comedy show called Mission to Zix did ads that were unskipable to me because they were in world and it was a sci-fi spoof of like Star Wars and Star Trek and anything sci-fi and fantasy. And sometimes they would just go to another character that was talking about an ad but in character in a spaceship on the radio asking for SOS they were crashing or they were like on an alien world selling things, but it was in character in world with characters and actors and sound effects and it was so clever and so intentional and it just was unskipable.

Stew Redwine (00:22:32):
Yeah and that's a great example of it matching in the content. And the other thing I've heard folks do is like, well here an example of this from you Deborah, where they'll have, 'cause yours is more of a game show where they'll have the host do it or they'll have a producer do it. And I think it was also on Ad Lucian 'cause we looked at a bunch of those for another episode, but the producer of the show was like, hey this is in 3D audio or it's in Atmos and it was an ad for Sonos speakers and they also, you know, said those most important words, which is I use this and you should too. And so that was another way of doing it. Hey we're the people that make this or hey I'm the real person and let me tell you about this or your other choices. We'll do it in world, do it as part of the part of the show.

Bill O'Reilly (00:23:10):
Do it live, I can, I'll

Deborah Goldstein (00:23:11):
Write it and we'll do it live.

Stew Redwine (00:23:13):
Is there anybody that stands out to you, Debra, in the space

Deborah Goldstein (00:23:16):
As a consumer, the most impactful advertisers are, like you were saying the host reads but where we can tell that they're authentic and they're actually using the product or taking advantage of the service and I listen to those people so it to me, whether I'm listening to Smartless or Wiser than me, you know those people who are actually taking the time, it's almost as if when they read an ad but it doesn't sound like they're reading it, they sound like they're really giving a testimonial that makes a huge difference to me.

Stew Redwine (00:23:45):
Absolutely. What we talk about at Oxford Road is it never hurts to have that personalization and you want to push for it as much as you can. And sometimes you'll be surprised, you'll hear one that sounds more dry like maybe from a Lex Fridman, but if you stop and you think about it, you're like oh that matches his tone. So that makes sense. It tracks. But if at all possible you want to feel that authenticity that they're saying, I used this thing, I did it. You know, it's like Aristotle, a person is not fully persuaded until they consider a thing demonstrated and I think part of demonstration is a testimonial, somebody getting up and like testify. Absolutely. Yes. And then you're like, I believe them. And then you're like, okay, I feel good about this 'cause you have a relationship. So let's listen to some ads from you guys.

(00:24:24):
Thank you for being well I think this is the first time we've done it this way where we're like we're only gonna listen to ads from the guests <laugh>. Oh boy. Which is cool. What I like about is it tracks with what we do, which is we use Magellan to look at the top spenders in podcasting and they look at that each month. And you can take a look@thatatmagellan.ai slash ad infinitum and also sign up for a free demo of Magellan. Like I said, each month Magellan AI identifies the top podcast advertisers by spend and changes in spend. And these rankings are based on Magellan's proprietary model, which tracks data from the most downloaded podcasts. And for additional details included comprehensive flighting frequency, historical data and more. You can book a customized demo at magellan.ai/add infinitum.

Jeremy Westphal (00:25:07):
If I could jump in and say I've done the free tutorial through Magellan AI and they are fantastic. Like the information they gave the tutorial they had, they were the nicest guys in the world. So it really is worth giving it a try.

Stew Redwine (00:25:18):
So you're saying I use this and you should too.

Jeremy Westphal (00:25:20):
I am definitely saying that there. We just did it.

Deborah Goldstein (00:25:23):
This episode is sponsored by Magellan. Yeah <laugh>.

Jeremy Westphal (00:25:26):
That is one thing we take seriously and I thought this is the perfect time for me to jump in and say like, yeah I've done this. Like they are super nice. I am emphatically saying like this is a really great tutorial, it's a really great service and I learned a lot in doing it. So yeah, no it was worth my time.

Stew Redwine (00:25:39):
There we go. Look, we just put it into practice, see theorem practicum together. I love this. Okay, so the three top spenders, I should say one, two, and three from this is November. We're recording this in early January. It always looks back like a month. And so I don't think December numbers have been released yet. So we're looking at November better help, 8.6 million in November, Amazon 7.9 million T-Mobile, 6.4. Couple things to call out. What's interesting to me is better help is better help 8.6 million all for better help Amazon, that 7.9 is sliced about four or five different ways, but there's the main aspects of Amazon that are spending in there. But you're looking at Amazon Prime, you're looking at Whole Foods, you're looking at Audible. So there's a few different things but nevertheless it's all Amazon and the whole last episode was about that. And then T-Mobile is also Mint Mobile.

(00:26:29):
So you've got T-Mobile and Mint Mobile 6.4 million. So lots of money being spent by these advertisers and they're top spenders in the space and so you know they're gonna go to shows that work and to networks at work. So all three of them are represented on GZM. So three of the top spenders are on your guys' shows and I've got a better help ad from six minutes, which is the big one for anybody that's listening with GZM, like start out with six minutes, it's the one that put 'em on the map. And then MIT mobile is on the Big Fib, which is the show that's hosted by Deborah and then it's Amazon Prime of the Amazon Kingdom, the one Amazon to rule them all from Earth Rangers. And then the fourth one I actually wanted to include in here to talk about and we'll do it last is Gen Z Media listener survey. Which is cool that that already came up because I noticed so many of those in your guys' shows with that feedback loop, which also this is nice you guys like say what you mean and mean what you say. And that one's from another heavy hitter on Gz M'S network, which is the unexplainable disappearance of Mars Patel. So with no further ado, let's get into this part and we're gonna listen to Better Help on six minutes.

BetterHelp Announcer (00:27:36):
This is an ad from Better Help this holiday season. Do something for a special person in your life. You give yourself the gift of better mental health, better Help Online Therapy connects you with a qualified therapist via phone, video or live chat. It's convenient and affordable and can be done from the comfort of your own home. Having someone to talk to is truly a gift, especially during the holidays. Visit Better help.com to learn more and save 10% off your first month. That's better help HEL p.com.

Stew Redwine (00:28:05):
So that's the first ad. Debra, what do you give that from Audio Persuasion one outta 10, what do you give it

Deborah Goldstein (00:28:11):
From audio Persuasion? Many different aspects I wanna cover, but in general I'm gonna give it a solid seven even though I have my commentary to go with it. It's sort of like a blind date that someone hooked you up because you're good on paper but there's maybe not that much chemistry, you know what I mean? Like on paper, like you check all the boxes but actually you're just not feeling it.

Stew Redwine (00:28:34):
Yes,

Deborah Goldstein (00:28:35):
Right. So I'm not gonna fault the ad for being bad at anything. I'm just gonna say there was a lot of opportunity for improvement, right? So it was clearly to me a pretty generic ad that could run anywhere but checked a lot of boxes, you know, it was specific to a particular season, it tells you what the USPS are, right? It's convenient, it's affordable, there's an offer, which is great. I personally love the fact, you know, hats off to the media buyers for identifying the need for mental healthcare amongst parents and parents who are gifting everybody else like spouses and kids and teachers, but don't necessarily think of themselves. So I think that's great. I don't know if that was purposeful, but that's how I looked at it. So that was really useful. But I'm not exactly sure why it started with this is an ad from Better Help. 'cause very shortly afterwards you hear that it's from Better Help but okay, so there's no any music, there's nothing really to connect it to the tone of the show necessarily, but it's a solid ad.

Stew Redwine (00:29:31):
All right, so a solid seven. Okay, we'll take it. Jeremy, what do you think in regards

Jeremy Westphal (00:29:35):
To audio persuasion? I wasn't persuaded to get a better help subscription, so I have to be very honest. I would say more of a five or a six.

Stew Redwine (00:29:45):
I'm gonna give it a 5.5 then

Jeremy Westphal (00:29:47):
5.5, 5.5 on the director sale.

Stew Redwine (00:29:49):
Okay.

Jeremy Westphal (00:29:49):
So it was more of a reminder, you know, it's like hey this is what happens, this is what you can do. Which is again great. It's great to have sort of a brand solidifying moment to bring brand Affinity higher. But it didn't drive me, it didn't connect with me. It was a great reminder. It was like, oh good, it was a nice public service announcement. Mental health is serious. Pay attention to it. But it didn't drive me or inspire me to really go after Better Help. It was great affirmation but not inspiration.

Stew Redwine (00:30:21):
Yes, I think it was great information but it was not inspirational. I like the assessment from both of you and thinking of the blind date thing, it's kind of like, yeah, this is the kind of person you'll probably end up with. They're okay <laugh>. So seven and a 5.5 on an audio lytics scale. So our target for all in market creative is a 90% and this got a 75% and for a lot of the same reasons like addresses irrelevant issue mental health during the holidays but lacks strong unique positioning. It could enhance trust further and needs just a little bit more clarity. And every word needs to count. It's lacking from a substantiation standpoint. And I think that's related to what you're saying Jeremy is like this is a nice reminder ad made by somebody who's pretty confident, you know what better help is and is just putting some direct mail in your mailbox, you've got mail, it's like it's another line in the water, but the bait on the end of that line isn't engaging.

Jeremy Westphal (00:31:23):
Yes. But is a good awareness campaign. Yes. Because when I'm in the mood, better help will probably be one of the first things to think about. But for the immediate activation and persuasion, eh, nothing's immediate.

Deborah Goldstein (00:31:37):
Well we can't turn up our noses at direct marketing.

Jeremy Westphal (00:31:39):
No.

Deborah Goldstein (00:31:39):
You know, a lot of it ends up in the trash, whether it's physical trash or the trash of our brains. But it's filed away somewhere to be retrieved later.

Stew Redwine (00:31:46):
I believe that yes, every impression does count, right? It's just what did it cost you and then did you make the most of your opportunity to make a memory at that time? And that's where I think we're all in agreement. And why this one's a 75, 5 0.5 a seven is there's nothing to remark about, but knowing the way the human mind works and even in that listening state, is it bait on the end of a line that one fish might grab? Yeah, yeah it is.

Jeremy Westphal (00:32:09):
And I'll say that this was an ad that we didn't produce. This was an ad that was given to us through one of our programmatic partners. So I think it did what it was supposed to

Stew Redwine (00:32:17):
Do. So that's interesting. How do you think about that when it comes to the breaks in those ads? Like we talked so much about the QC process though you're not controlling the creative itself. Are you still all vetting everything that's running on the GZM network?

Jeremy Westphal (00:32:33):
Oh yes, absolutely. We, you know, QC every morning and sometimes multiple times with multiple people. But we also, the creative itself is really leaning into creating cliffhangers and then having that like mental break, that tension break where an ad can go, it really leads you and then gives you something to just to, to give a break and then back into the action. And same thing with Deborah, like Deborah has a lot of the game show for the big fib where it's broken out into acts and then there's space for the ad and then they come back and then there's like the thrilling conclusion to the game show. Damn. But yeah, no, we are very intentional and we really try to police and keep aware and set them up for success wherever they're placed.

Stew Redwine (00:33:15):
So with an ad like this where it's like okay, it's middling basically there's really a lot of opportunities for improvement. Is there feedback mechanisms in place where you're able to encourage them to do something more dynamic? And then I'm sure at scale that could become difficult, but I'm just curious about that.

Jeremy Westphal (00:33:31):
For the programmatic it's difficult because you know, whether you're talking about vast tags or you getting the programmatic through R 19 or through megaphone, there's no direct communication with the brands. But whenever we talk to our partners or whenever we're talking to the brands directly, we try to communicate that immediate, intimate, authentic relationship we have with our audience and that that can really help move the needle for them. Sometimes it helps.

Deborah Goldstein (00:33:56):
Yeah, that's key when you have that communication. Because if you don't, like Jeremy said, there's no way of managing expectations or agreeing what the goal is in running those ads. But when you have those conversations upfront, then you can set everybody up for success by identifying what the goal is, what the measure of success is, what next steps would be after you run it, all that kind of stuff.

Jeremy Westphal (00:34:16):
And so if we look at that from the lens of persuasion, this is good for not immediate buy, but long-term affinity and awareness.

Stew Redwine (00:34:25):
Yeah, I think it does. Okay. I mean it's definitely present. I think what I'm hearing, you know for the chief audio officers that are out there that are listening that it's like hey look if you're buying programmatically, make sure your creative's working hard. Because I think what we're seeing at play here is in a sense path of least resistance. Like this is sort of what you would expect in a vacuum where there isn't all these feedback loops and attention is probably more likely you may end up with something with less razzle-dazzle and it probably has to be safe 'cause it's probably being placed in a lot of places. So you know, you've just gotta do the assessment on yourself that you might be going, well I know my frequency is high enough that I can do something that's a little more bland because I'm gonna be doing it so many places. But the other part of me goes like, well come on, we can reach higher than this and do something more distinct and interesting. So let's see how Mint Mobile decided to show up on the big fib. Here we go.

Deborah Goldstein (00:35:16):
The Big fib is brought to you by support from Mint Mobile. I have a question for you. Is saving more and spending less one of your goals for 2025? If so, why are you still paying such high prices every month For wireless switching to Mint mobile is the easiest way to save this year and the easiest way to keep that 2025 goal of yours. I think I've mentioned before that one of our producers here at the Big Fib got a Mint mobile plan for his son recently. Well that's because his 2025 goal was to help his son foster independence and save money while doing it. Do you wanna save more and spend less as your New Year's resolution Right now when you purchase a new three month phone plan with Mint Mobile, you'll pay just 15 bucks a month. No strings attached, no sneaky fine print, no big fibs. Just a great deal to get this new customer offer and your new three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mint mobile.com/big fib. That's mint mobile.com/big FB $45 upfront payment required equivalent to $15 a month. New customers on first three month plan only speed slower, above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint mobile for details.

Stew Redwine (00:36:32):
Okay, so was not planned but this is like the exact answer to sort of the premise of the challenge after listening to the Better help ad of like oh this is how to do the exact opposite <laugh>. So stuff that I liked about it just as a listener before I talk about audio lytics was the music, how to nice feel to it doesn't feel intrusive. Big fib is sort of a rip roaring, you know it can be a lot of fun as a show, but this felt like appropriate for the ad break segment. So that felt right to me. And then I really like that you read it as the host all the way through. You talked about a real story even though you weren't able to talk about it, you were able to talk about one from somebody you know, a producer, the producer's son.

(00:37:11):
And then I also really liked that you read the disclaimer. That's something that we've pushed for a lot as well. 'cause I have like a private theory that I think that that actually increases credibility when the actual person keeps reading the terms and conditions as opposed to passing it off to another voice of like you do the dirty work. Yeah, right. <laugh>, you know, so it's like you rolled up your sleeves and did the dirty work yourself. Also makes for an easier recording session 'cause you can just go straight through it. And then from an audio lytics standpoint, this one graded a lot higher. I think it was the top rated one for the, yeah, it was 84%.

Deborah Goldstein (00:37:42):
Wow, that's great.

Stew Redwine (00:37:43):
Yeah, the target is 90 and it's like technicality sort of where there could be some increased scarcity, like why Act now could be added in. There's already great substantiation but substantiation of how is this better than the status quo or competitors. But this is like shaving milliseconds in the Olympics with an 84 with an ad like this. This is really good in the trades that you have to make to get it up to a 90 would be you using it yourself would be helpful. Or being able to increase the scarcity would probably would absolutely be the two biggest levers that you could pull. But where it's at, like this is solid. So that's where we come down on it. How do you grade your own actually? But we'll have Deborah greater her own homework last.

Deborah Goldstein (00:38:25):
Yeah, I feel like I should recuse myself.

Stew Redwine (00:38:27):
So yeah, we'll hear what Jeremy has to say. What do you rate this ad?

Jeremy Westphal (00:38:29):
I could be impartial and I was gonna give myself seven or eight, 7.5 <laugh>. The music was fine, it wasn't intrusive, it was relaxing but it was also engaging. I liked the opener and this is hard for me to write because I'm the one who wrote this copy. You know I got the talking points. <laugh>,

Deborah Goldstein (00:38:46):
You did a great job. Jeremy <laugh>.

Jeremy Westphal (00:38:50):
I'm the one who actually was the producer who got the Mint Mobile four. Their son.

Deborah Goldstein (00:38:53):
Yeah. Oh wow.

Jeremy Westphal (00:38:55):
Yeah, it's a big deal for me to speak authentically. And if our voice of network Jess, or if our host Deborah can't actually use it or haven't used it, I try to use it myself. And it was just a crazy coincidence that I need to get a cell phone for my 10-year-old because he's going to a new school and we wanna keep track with them. But it was really important for me to have hands on experience so I could write something about it.

Deborah Goldstein (00:39:18):
And Jeremy is amazing. Every time there is a potential advertiser who is interested in a host read, he'll put it out there to the whole team. Has anybody had any experience with this? Can you speak to this? Has anybody thinking of having experience with this so that he can find people who can provide those testimonials?

Jeremy Westphal (00:39:34):
Because I don't wanna have a host lie and say like, oh a Casper mattress is great by the way. I actually have a Casper mattress because of a podcast act. But still like I don't want them to lie.

Deborah Goldstein (00:39:42):
We all say that we would lie, but Jeremy won't have it.

Jeremy Westphal (00:39:45):
Oh actually, right, right. <laugh>. But one thing we've done is I try to get products to sample myself. And so we've had, I've bought HelloFresh, I've bought Crunch Labs for my son, I've bought T-Mobile for my son and I've done a lot of products myself because it matters that I'm speaking authentically from a customer's point of view. You know with like the login, the promo code. I wanna make sure it's all working and I wanna make sure that people have a good experience. I wanna make sure that we're speaking to the things that actually matter from the point of view of a co-listing parent from the point of view of a educator with my partner from the point of view of like my kids, like what do they think? And so yeah, I try and put that in

Stew Redwine (00:40:21):
And all of that to me is this stuff that makes audio work. We talk about this a lot at Oxford in that audio is inherently inefficient 'cause it's intimacy and relationship based relationships are not efficient. This obsession with efficiency is fine for making bolts for an airplane, please prepare for that. Great. Not how humans work. And I can relate it to like better help. Seeing something like Better Help exists now is beautiful and it seeing like to be fully human and be fully alive is to be pretty inefficient. And that is okay. And audio is inherently inefficient with things like what you're talking about. It is so built on trust and here we see it in stark relief. Better help God bless 'em. It's great, it's fine. We all said it. We're all professionals and we go, it's fine. Okay, well now is that the kind of thing you go home and you're proud about whatever, that's separate.

(00:41:10):
Then we just heard one where it's like, yes, I know you guys are grading your own homework. We do that at Oxford Road. That's what Audio lytics is. The point is that you're trying to get a view on it and look at it and with this Mint mobile one from the big fib and then how you're talking about your approach that like every advertiser is this inefficiency. It's hard to scale, I gotta admit it is hard to scale. But hearing the two back to back, it's like, ah yeah, this is the stuff, this is the stuff right here that we want preserve. And we say at Oxford Road, hashtag save the live reads. And I think you're gonna see more of this. This will not go away. And in fact, I think a premium's gonna be put on it as you see more of the programmatic go up as well,

Deborah Goldstein (00:41:46):
Right? I hope so.

Stew Redwine (00:41:47):
I think so. Okay. Debra, how do you grade yourself? Debra?

Deborah Goldstein (00:41:50):
That's a great question. You know what, as a woman, I try not to judge myself too harshly in this world that's always judging.

Stew Redwine (00:41:57):
Good, good.

Deborah Goldstein (00:41:58):
However that said, I do try to keep the same tone that I use throughout the show in the ad read because it is I who is showing up on the show and therefore it is I who is showing up in the ad read as well. I don't need to try to make it authentic, I just try to be myself. I guess that's redundant in a way. But

Stew Redwine (00:42:19):
What I hear when you're saying that is you're deciding not to be performative.

Deborah Goldstein (00:42:22):
That's correct. Yes. Or I'm always performative. You choose <laugh>. But yes, <laugh>, that's possible as well. But yes, that is correct.

Stew Redwine (00:42:29):
What do you give it outta 10?

Deborah Goldstein (00:42:31):
I give it an eight.

Stew Redwine (00:42:32):
Yay. I think it's an eight.

Deborah Goldstein (00:42:33):
Yeah, because an eight looks like a B, which is for the big fib. The big the end <laugh>.

Stew Redwine (00:42:39):
All right, so another one. Let's see. From one Amazon tool them all how they show up on earth Rangers.

Bill O'Reilly (00:42:47):
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. There's nothing sweeter than baking cookies during the holidays with Prime, I get all my ingredients delivered right to my door, fast and free. No last minute store trips needed. And of course I blast my favorite holiday playlist on Amazon music. It's the ultimate soundtrack for creating unforgettable memories from streaming to shopping. It's on prime visit amazon.com/prime to get more out of whatever you're into.

Stew Redwine (00:43:14):
Okay, there we go. That's the next one. With no further ado, Jeremy, what do you give it? What's your analysis and your grade?

Jeremy Westphal (00:43:20):
I wanna give it a five as well. Actually. I'm gonna give it a four. I'm gonna give it a four.

Stew Redwine (00:43:24):
I'm actually shocked.

Jeremy Westphal (00:43:26):
Yeah,

Stew Redwine (00:43:27):
Talk to me <laugh>, what did it do to you?

Jeremy Westphal (00:43:29):
The music is too abrasive for me. It's like, hey, you ready to party? Like no I wasn't. I was just doing something else. And then another one is like the person who's reading the ed, like, hey, it's time for the holidays. And when I'm in LIMU for the holidays, I want to bake cookies. Like who are you? Why do I care about your cookies? I don't know you. Like there's a level of intimacy that is immediate, that is unearned. That is how I actually listen. It's like I don't want to be tricked, I don't wanna be tricked, I just want honest responses and information. Like, hey, it's a holiday. Holiday, makes people think about cookies. That's honest. I care about that. Because it is like, yeah, you're right, it's a holiday. Here's the vibe, here's the feel. But to like try to come at me with loud music that is partying music with someone that's like, Hey, I'm doing this thing. I'm in the mood for cookies. It's like, I don't know who you are. And this was not the mood I'm in. And it doesn't fit all vehicles of all podcasts. And so if I was listening to a chat show, this came on, it would be abrasive. It would be a change of tone listening to one of our shows for, you know, script of fiction, young adults or for younger audiences or for teachers. It's a too sharp change of a tone and without actually having earned authenticity.

Stew Redwine (00:44:39):
Okay. Well

Deborah Goldstein (00:44:41):
Tell us how you really feel, Jeremy.

Stew Redwine (00:44:43):
I'm so sorry. <laugh>. Yeah, thank you. No, we're the third ad in. This is good. The production value was great. <laugh>. Deborah, what do you give it? What's your take on it?

Deborah Goldstein (00:44:52):
I actually give it a five also, but for very different reasons. I was not offended by the music at all. I don't know, when you're baking, if you're baking a lot, and actually I don't bake a lot, but I'm guessing if you bake a lot and you're baking for the holidays and you gotta get a lot of cookies out there, you're gonna put some good music on. So that did not offend me at all. It just felt like it was kind of that brand awareness reminder. It didn't really say anything in particular. It didn't tell me to take advantage of anything in particular. It didn't tell me anything new about what Amazon Prime is or whether or not I'm listening. And the shift to Amazon music felt like I was taking an exit off the highway that I wasn't prepared to take. I didn't realize that was coming.

(00:45:33):
And I'm not even sure why because I'm not sure what that was offering me. Is it offering me ad free music or just music in general? I don't know. What's the benefit of listening to Amazon music on Amazon Prime? I don't know. So I felt like my immediate response was, I don't know if this is a thing, but it felt like a McDonald's land grab of spots just to like put all their spots out there to block anyone else from buying ad spots. They were so successful 'cause they bought real estate, right? And so there was a McDonald's on every corner and Starbucks followed suit and et cetera. So it felt like we just wanna put ourselves out there so no one else gets a chance. That's how I felt about it.

Stew Redwine (00:46:09):
Blocking out the competitors.

Deborah Goldstein (00:46:10):
Yeah,

Stew Redwine (00:46:11):
Yeah, I understand. I got it. Wow. <laugh>, I really love the holidays. So I mean, I'll give you the audio lytic score, the Stew Red wine score. I'm like sucked right in. I wanna bake those cookies and I wanna put on a Christmas sweater

Bill O'Reilly (00:46:22):
Chestnuts roasting on an open

Stew Redwine (00:46:25):
Farm

Jeremy Westphal (00:46:25):
That wasn't holiday music.

Stew Redwine (00:46:27):
Well I get, I was pulled into this scene, <laugh>, I'm like, yeah, hey, what are we listening to? I'm also like, I love music <laugh>.

Deborah Goldstein (00:46:34):
Yeah, I was fine with that.

Stew Redwine (00:46:35):
But it's great to get your points of view. And it reminds me of a story that a researcher that we worked with told us where they'd done a bunch of research for. It was something like a, B, C or something like that. It doesn't really matter. And they're sharing with them about the demographic of their customer and they go, well, like one of the main things is they shop at Walmart. And one of the executives stood up, he was incredulous. He goes, that is ridiculous. And like what? He goes, I would never shop at Walmart. And they're like, well you're not the customer dude, <laugh>. And as silly as that extreme story is, it kind of makes the point that even in this experience, here's three people having, I know we're grading IT professionals, but also as individuals we're having very different reactions. And so it's like, okay, well what is our customer?

(00:47:18):
What are we trying to do? I was gonna say what it felt like to me was between the two, it was like better help was fine. And then the MIT mobile ad FB is like, great, what audio does that other things can't do? And this one's like between the two. 'cause it's had the music, it feels like something poured over from radio, which I'm hearing a lot of from an audio lytic standpoint. It actually is also the lowest grade. It's not as low as your guys' grades, but it's a 67%. And it's for that lack of clarity. What you pointed out, Deborah, that it goes Amazon music, Amazon Prime, and even with Amazon, what I think about is like if you walk into a Walmart, like here where I live in Santa Clarita, you walk into the Walmart, inside the Walmart, this huge banner says, number one retailer in California or at McDonald's, you brought up McDonald's, 1 billion sold.

(00:48:05):
You still need to do that. Even when you're the biggest one in the room, you still need to wear a gold chain with a dollar bill on it and be like, look at us, we are number one. You have to say, I am the greatest. I'm the greatest. <laugh>, I'm the greatest. And Amazon's not doing that. That's substantiation. And also from a taking action standpoint, again, we're grading it on persuasion, scarcity is missing. So it's more leaned back, lean back, leaned back. And then what's interesting is that the scenario it proposed and even the implied intimacy where it's trying to sound like maybe this is the host that backfired to Jeremy. And so it's like this would almost be better to be closer to like the better help ad just with a little bit of a harder hitting message,

Deborah Goldstein (00:48:45):
Right? I mean I almost felt like they should be equally scored and that if you combined <laugh>, if the creatives of both ads got together, it would be a great ad because they lacked what the other one.

Stew Redwine (00:48:55):
That's good. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Take the best parts of both of those.

Deborah Goldstein (00:48:58):
Exactly.

Stew Redwine (00:48:58):
Okay. So note to <laugh>, our chief audio officers, well to those creative teams you guys should call each other. And then to our chief audio officers that are listening, make sure that you're committed to what you're gonna do. Don't go part way. Okay. So for this last ad, it's a little different, but I wanted to include it and we talked about this and we'll close out with this one, but let's still grade it as an ad. It's for one of your listener surveys. So here we go.

Jess Fisher (00:49:21):
Hey there, it's Jess from GZM shows. I just wanted to drop a quick shout out and say a big thank you. Thanks for following us and for spreading the word about our awesome stories. Your support means the world to us. Whether you've snagged a subscription, checked out our free educator resources on our site, or simply chatted up our shows with a friend, you're making a difference. Every little bit. Totally helps. So guess what? We're actually on a mission to get to know you better and we'd love your input. We're running a listener survey to make sure we're bringing you ads that you actually like. We wanna keep the good stuff rolling with fresh seasons of six minutes coming soon and more shows like Nightingale and Winnie Taylor's fourth and inches. So help us out by hitting up g zm shows.com/survey and taking a super quick survey to tell us about yourself. Once again, that's GZM shows.com/survey. Thanks a bunch. You are awesome.

Stew Redwine (00:50:20):
All right guys, so that is the GZM survey like we were talking about. Debra, what do you rate it?

Deborah Goldstein (00:50:27):
Gonna give it an eight. Again, I do feel a little close to it, but I know Jess, I think Jess is a great performer and a great ad reader and I really felt like she was talking to me and that she cared about me and that my opinion matters. You know? Yes, <laugh>, that's 'cause she does. She makes you feel that way. So hats off to Jess on the read itself and making me feel important and making me feel like I had agency in the kind of content or ads that I'm gonna hear across this network. If I had to improve it in any way, there might have been an offer attached to it. Like do this and then you get this because let's face it, we're all grabby these days and we all want a little something for our time. Being on the other side. I know that we don't have anything to give except that we can listen to you and do what you tell us to do or try to anyway. Yeah. So I thought it was really well done, well read and I felt connected to it.

Stew Redwine (00:51:20):
Jeremy, how about you?

Jeremy Westphal (00:51:21):
I'm actually gonna give this one an eight. Oh yeah, I wrote it and produced it and everything, but that's not why I'm giving it an eight. The reason I'm giving it an eight is because when I wrote the ad, I made sure to listen to all of the ads that were serving surveys through other shows like Ted Talks was their weekly show, Ted Talks Radio, fable and Folly. They had one The Moth, there was another one from Harvard Business Review. There's one from Realm and Story Pirates. And so I went through a really deep dive in research to find the ads that were serving listener surveys to their audience. And I listened to what moved me and it's sad 'cause like I view myself as cynical and I don't want to trick people, but I do want to inspire them towards motion and improvement. And I felt like I stole a lot of language of saying thank you to the audience, not having a music bed to give a little bit more sense of intimacy and not like handshaking jazz hands, having it be, this is why we have ads an explainer so that people know why there are advertising, explaining that we want to make things better for you, the listener because you're the most important thing.

(00:52:35):
And these ads help us make more of what you love, help us help you make more of what you love. And so I stole bits and pieces of the language that I found the most effective across other survey ads. And this is something that we try to do annually. And so we're actually coming up on doing some more survey ads. We did it last year, we're gonna do it again this year. And so honestly, this is a really, really great conversation to be having. 'cause I'll take any notes that you give because being effective to learn from our audience is the most important thing to us. And we learned a lot from our last survey. We learned about our audience, we learned about who they are, what's important to them. We learned about kids and family and co-listing parents, we learned about young adults, we learned about the strong educator audience we have and we learned that they have pets. And that helped us get like pretty little ads. We learned that our audience likes to travel. And so we've been talking to a lot of advertisers helping to travel. We learned a lot and we try to use that to help them get what they want.

Stew Redwine (00:53:34):
So you just gave yourself one of the main notes, which would be substantiate the survey, the value of it, and how have you used it to make decisions in the past? And you just did that in a playful way. Like from our surveys, we've done X, Y, and Z and you can do it in a GZM style where it's playful <laugh>. Oh yeah, that's really good. But that's some substantiation of the thing that's on offer that's different than the T-Mobile spot. So this one scored just below, it got an 81% meant mobile got an 84%. And it's that it's missing the scarcity, which we all identified at the end, which is like why? Why would I do this? Why act now? And sometimes that's a trade you just have to make. You just can't do that. And in fact, for some of our advertisers, our Target audio lytics score isn't a 90 for them based on all of their goals and performance. It's like, let's say one I'm thinking of it's at 72 because we've adjusted based on how we're measuring success, how long we have to get there that that's a better target for them to try to hit.

Deborah Goldstein (00:54:26):
Right? You're grading on a curve.

Stew Redwine (00:54:28):
Yes. But like a 90 is for you want people acting right now when they hear this spot. You gotta keep that in mind. So that's where like, yeah, it doesn't give you this really compelling reason to act. And then the other thing is it's missing the piece that you had in your mobile spot, which was, I use this and you should too, right? So it's like, what did we do? Which in this circumstance, the way you would do that is we've done this in the past and that's why we'd made this show and why we made this decision. And so those are my notes. Good

Deborah Goldstein (00:54:53):
Notes.

Stew Redwine (00:54:53):
So our final roundup on the grades is essentially we had like a bucket of winners and a bucket of losers. And it's interesting, the Amazon and the Better Help spots both were combined, they're right in there at a five, you know, it was a seven, a 5.5, a five, and a 4 67, a 75%. So you know, they're okay.

Deborah Goldstein (00:55:09):
Solid meh,

Stew Redwine (00:55:10):
Solid me. They weren't as sharp and crisp as they could be. And that's just for anybody listening, chief audio officers listening, like that's the secret to this stuff. It's a secret to life getting another view on yourself so you can just be honest about it. So listen to it and either make it hit harder or you may be okay with it, but just accept that that is where it's at. And then Mint mobile and the survey, both were the magic of audio. It's the inefficient magic of this is a real person talking about it and giving that endorsement. You know, George Carlin's got his seven dirty words.

Deborah Goldstein (00:55:39):
All I could think of was

Stew Redwine (00:55:43):
To me the seven beautiful words, or I use this and you should too. Like those are the words to look out for. And that's the only thing, like I said, that's on the survey one is like, well what did we do with it last time? That could be added in there. But for our chief audio officers listening as they're looking at kids and family, you know like, let's make it specific. What are your top recommendations for people who are responsible for making ad dollars work in audio? What are your recommendations when they look at the kids and family genre in podcast? Jeremy, we'll start with you.

Jeremy Westphal (00:56:12):
Okay, well I think you really pointed it out. Get in touch with the folks who are making the shows and who are taking the work to reach out and understand their audience to really make audio. When we did the one for Mint Mobile, I talked to the reps and I found out what we could and couldn't do. Found out what their ultimate goal was. I was able to share a little bit of information about our audience and I hold the audience sacred and I really wanted to speak to them about that. And Deborah really wanted to speak to them about that as well. So whenever we have the opportunity to, yes, it's more work. Yes, it's hard to reach out to a lot of people, but it's work that's worth it. It really is like you make such a great product, you make such a great demand.

(00:56:52):
You, what did you say? You want to great things on effectiveness and urgency. Like what would make people want to do it now that's gonna help make people want to engage and react to you immediately. So yeah, getting in touch with folks like Deborah and me getting in touch directly with us to make those specific authentic and unique ads, whether they're soundscape or with music or seven wonderful words. I use this in you should too and have it be authentic. I use net mobile, I use other things. And those real moments, they could be transferred through trust to the audience. They are incredibly effective and memorable.

Stew Redwine (00:57:28):
What I'm hearing you say is lean into the inefficiency, pick up the phone. Yes.

Jeremy Westphal (00:57:32):
Hello.

Stew Redwine (00:57:33):
And Deborah, what about you? What's your advice to the chief audio officers that are listening as they're looking at the kids and family genre and podcast?

Deborah Goldstein (00:57:39):
Yeah, look is what I'm gonna say. First you kind of bring it to the very first question, which was can you explain why this feels like it's not the first thing that people think about? Why isn't it? It should be. And so everybody needs to take a look and see that we've got these incredible audiences that span ages and that trust us and we already have this fantastic relationship with and you should look and use that and let us help you use it if you can. If you don't have the time, you don't have the cash, that's cool too. We'll make it work. But don't forget about us, don't forget about kids and family. We're a really valuable audience.

Stew Redwine (00:58:15):
Excellent. That is great advice. It is worth looking into all of the opportunities. My prediction is this one is gonna grow increasingly more, especially as the collective unconscious or conscious for crying out loud when it comes to raising children in 2025 in the United States of America goes, yeah, I'm good without this so we can listen to some stuff and it engages different parts of the brain. So thank you guys for all you do. Thank you for how seriously you take it, how much you respect and honor your audience. It comes through and holds up under scrutiny here and we wanted to start out our new year and new season of Ad Infinitum with a great show and that's exactly what came through here. So thank you both. Thank you so much for joining us on Ad Infinitum and for sharing your expertise in Kids and Family podcasts and so much more across audio and persuasion. And where can listeners go to learn more about your work and all the things you guys have going right now?

Jeremy Westphal (00:59:07):
Well, GZM shows.com has all of the shows that GZM shows is working on and you can get updates on what we've got coming out that's new, a new show called Imagination Amplified, and we're all sort of leaning in as a family to help make that new series shine.

Deborah Goldstein (00:59:23):
Yep. And my show on the GZM shows network is the big fib. So you can hear me there. Look, we can create a whole episode around a particular product. So we're open to that too

Stew Redwine (00:59:36):
For the big fib.

Deborah Goldstein (00:59:37):
That's right.

Stew Redwine (00:59:37):
Awesome. The big fibs goodbye. If you ask me why can you trust the answer the big, and that's the jingle from the big fib, which Sonic branding works. Mighty Chief audio officers that are listening as De and Jeremy have testified to at GZM that they even get kids sending in recordings of that jingle. So Jeremy, Deborah, thank you so much for coming on. Adam Infinitum. Thank you.

Deborah Goldstein (01:00:09):
Thank you so much. This is a lot of fun. Really appreciate it.

Jeremy Westphal (01:00:11):
I'm a fan of the show and this has been great to talk to you and you gave some great advice on how to make things a little bit better. So really thanks. Well maybe we'll do it again

Stew Redwine (01:00:18):
Sometime to our listeners. If you enjoyed today's episode, we'd love for you to show us some love with an honest five star review. And if there's a specific genre of podcasting and audio ad or a jingle that's stuck in your head you'd like us to take a look at or do an episode about, drop me a note at stew@oxfordroad.com. And until next time, keep pushing the boundaries of sound and remember to have fun making the ads work.