Stew Redwine (00:00):
This is Add Infinitum.

(00:18):
Add Infinitum is the award-winning podcast solely focused on audio ads, the creatives who make them and or the latest thinking that informs them how the space is evolving. And my favorite part, a roundup of recent audio ads with Analysis by yours truly, stew Redwine. And each episode's guest. This is season three, episode four of Ad Infinitum. And today we're stepping into a world of make believe specifically the imaginary world of audio ads. Advertising isn't just selling it's storytelling. And just like great books, movies and TV shows, ads create their own realities, or at least they can. Sometimes they're a reality we wanna avoid. Some are straightforward, I have this problem, here's the solution. Others invite us into something bigger, whether it's Geico's universe of absurd humor, the cinematic lore of Apple Ads, or the nostalgic Americana of Coca-Cola's holiday campaigns. But nowhere is the power of Theater of the Mind stronger than in audio ads, or at least it can be.

(01:16):
And today we're diving into all of it with Eric Molinsky, journalist, audio producer and host of Imaginary Worlds, a show about how we construct and interact with fictional universes, whether it's sci-fi, fantasy comics or roleplaying games today, we're taking that lens and applying it to advertising. How do brands build worlds that feel real? And why do some ad campaigns become a part of culture while others fall flat? Eric, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's so great to have you here. I was very late to the Imaginary World's party, but my dog Maverick and I are grateful for you accompanying us on our walks now for like two months straight 'cause I've got a lot of catching up to do.

Eric Molinsky (01:56):
Thank you. It's funny 'cause I often associate podcasts with what I'm doing when I'm listening to them. You know, there are certain washing dishes, podcasts for me. There's certain subway podcasts for me, there's certain airplane binge podcasts for me. So I'm always curious to hear what people do. You know, there's like some woman in, I think it was like in the north of England, where she goes, there's like some kind of like aging Celtic circle of stones that she likes to walk up around when she listens to my, she walks her dog up there and listens to my show. And I love that <laugh> to imagine her up there.

Stew Redwine (02:26):
Wow. She's making it contextual. Yeah, I'm walking under high tension power lines. Sure, that works. So a little bit of a different vibe, but you know, it's LA's Rone Stones <laugh>. I love it. So yeah, it's been a great ride. And I think before we get into it, your reads, in fact I wanna play a couple samples. So

Eric Molinsky (02:45):
What do you do after you've just interviewed a supernatural entity? I certainly couldn't go to sleep, so I decided this is a great opportunity to work on my French. If I was in London, I would definitely use today ticks to get tickets for the Stranger Things play in one piece. The character of Sanji is an amazing cook and while I'm not at Sanjay's level of cooking, I can feel like a heroic chef when I use HelloFresh.

Stew Redwine (03:10):
So that's just a couple quick examples of how you seamlessly tie your host Red ads into the content. Is that something that came natural to you? Was that something like, tell me about that. How do you come up with those?

Eric Molinsky (03:21):
Well, I hadn't been doing that before. I just was reading the ads and when I joined my current organization Q Code, my current ad partners, they recommended this to me. They actually said to me, they given me lots of great advice and one of them was, you could be having a lot more fun with these ads, which was a great way of phrasing it. And they said, you know, they also don't want you to do the thing at the end where you're like, which I used to do. That's coming up after the break, which I got from public radio. And they said, don't do that. Just come to a natural pause and then start and work it thematically into the show. And I was like, uh, okay. And then once I started doing it, I was like, oh this is creatively liberating. This is so much fun.

(03:59):
In fact, the tricky thing is if somebody gives me so much stuff to read that is required. It is tricky to do, but there's something about it that I can play with. Like I, I've done a lot of ads for ShipStation. I don't actually use ShipStation personally, but it's a cool site. I've looked around, I would totally use it if I did, but I also love the word ShipStation so I can play with stuff like I did a Star Wars related episode and I start talking about Lando Calrissian Cloud City who is literally on a ships station <laugh>. And now he could have really used ShipStation, you know, or Futurama as a delivery service, you know, planet Express. I could talk about that. You know, I'm doing a bunch of ads for hymns. I don't need hymns personally, you know, I do have still have my full head of hair, but you know, there's so many great, I could talk about how you look in the mirror. You don't wanna look like Lex Luther or Kingpin <laugh>, you know, or whatever. I mean there's so many ways that I've really enjoyed being able to tie into it. I mean some people very often think that I'm doing it to trick them or something, but it's often gotten a little almost too organic where people really do think it's an ad.

Stew Redwine (05:01):
Yeah,

Eric Molinsky (05:02):
I mean they think it's part of the story as I'm doing it and then I do a quick, I very quietly pivot to the ad itself. But it's been really fun. And in fact the more creativity I can have, the better for me to do it. And I also feel like this is part of my show. You know, why not make it enjoyable for people to listen to? It's part of the show and, and I put a lot of care into everything else. And so that was actually kinda liberating when they suggested doing that. And I've gotten great feedback from my listeners about it.

Stew Redwine (05:27):
That's awesome to hear. They told you to have fun. 'cause we say that at the end of every episode and I believe it to remember to have fun making the ads work and you can feel that enjoyment. I also feel like there's a whole episode of ad infinitum I could do about that delicate balance of like oftentimes when we're getting briefed in we'll hear like we don't even want people to know it's an ad. And I'm like, hmm, I don't know if you really think that. I think you don't want it to sound like an ad or be offputting or tacky or cheesy, but kind of to your point, if they don't know it's an ad, you can trigger almost like a bait and switch fee. It almost feels dirtier.

Eric Molinsky (06:04):
Yeah. Some people have complained about that at first that they thought I was tricking them. And so,

Stew Redwine (06:09):
Right.

Eric Molinsky (06:10):
I've tried to, and also too, you should put the name of the sponsor up as soon as possible. So

Stew Redwine (06:14):
I think so too,

Eric Molinsky (06:15):
Right? So at first I would have these preambles that were way too long and so I try to get the sponsor name in there quicker so that, you know, A, people know it's an ad and B, you know, you should get the sponsor name in there quicker. It's still a balance, you know, I'm still kind of trying to figure that out. But like I said, the more room there is for me to play, the better in terms of the copy that I'm given.

Stew Redwine (06:35):
I agree. I'm prepping to speak at uh, podcast movement evolutions and I've been reading this book Sonic Branding from 2003 by Daniel M. Jackson. Anyway, he was talking about how the four elements of a brand are distinct, memorable, flexible, and honest. And I was thinking about that. It's like that's what makes a host a brand. I mean, or a brand like a host, that it's their voice is distinct, their voice is memorable. You're flexible in your approach and you're hopefully honest. And I think that's what you do so well. We're already off to such a great start. You create incredible imaginary worlds in your ads and that's 'cause of the imaginary worlds you explore on your show. Like many that can be recognized just from their sound.

(07:22):
Think about your favorite fictional world, maybe it's middle earth, Gotham City or the Star Wars universe. Now think about an ad campaign you remember probably gonna take you a second. That's what I find. The ones that you do remember is probably not an individual commercial but an experience. So what do these fictional worlds and ads have in common world Building ads aren't just persuasive messages, at least that's not solely what they are. They're narrative constructs. And today with Eric, we're going to explore the rules of storytelling, how they apply to advertising and how we as Chief audio officers can use them to craft ads that don't just sell but transport. So Eric, in Imaginary Worlds, you explore the rules that make fictional universes feel real. In your mind, how do those same principles apply to advertising or specifically audio advertising using the theater of the Mind?

Eric Molinsky (08:15):
Well, you know, it's interesting. I mean, early on in my show I did a miniseries on magic and the Rules of Magic, which I always think are kind of interesting because you can literally do anything with magic and there's kind of a temptation to throw everything in the kitchen sink in there. And it was interesting how much people talked about not, you know, every rule you change about the world as it is, there are so many kind of like variables that can happen with that, you know? And that the best fantasy stories, very often one thing has been changed about reality and I think some of my favorite ads are the same way. Where it's like, imagine a world where this happens or our product is so great that it will make you blah blah blah. And then they'll have all these people doing that one thing.

(08:57):
I think those are some of the best ads because it just takes that premise. But then everything else is based in reality. You know? Well what would happen if that was true? And to not go too far sometimes. I mean I think that, or I used to hear this about screenwriting, this is a long time ago, 20 something years ago now. I used to lived in LA and knew people in Hollywood. It'd say like, you know, don't have aliens show up in Harry Potter and don't have molder and Scully on the X-Files. Find a magic wand, you know, <laugh>, like basically don't mix your mumbo Jumbo was another phrase I heard. And you know, even when they do that, like Marvel does everything. I feel like that for me, the coherence of that universe starts to fall apart cinematically when it literally has everything. And even the characters are sometimes grappling with that.

(09:41):
And so I feel like my favorite ads are the ones where there is kind of like, there's one rule, one thing's, what was the ad? It was a Super Bowl ad where it was something is so good. I think it was like Uber Eats or something that it will make you forget something really important. And it was really funny. It was all these celebrities forgetting things. The, you know, posh Spice couldn't remember what the name of her group was. David Schwimmer and Jennifer Aniston bump into each other and Jennifer Aniston can't remember who he is, you know, and it's like, I remember it being really funny and it was just, it was limited and you could have so much fun within limitations. You know, people often say that the best creativity happens within limitations. And I think that's true with advertising too. And you remembered that ad that they all forgot <laugh>. I did. I do use

Stew Redwine (10:20):
Uber Eats. There's plenty of other things I forget <laugh>. Well I mean there you go. The Allstate campaign where there was the depiction of Mayhem by Dean Winters and he was the personification of the things that can happen that you need insurance for. But everything else in the world, other than him being a human, like getting drug behind a car, being the wind or whatever, everything else like the physics of the world was all the same, which is something you talk about a lot.

Announcer VO 1 (10:48):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Announcer VO 2 (10:51):
No. So get Allstate and be better protected from mayhem. Yeah. Like me. Ah, someone has broken too. Pal <laugh> your

Stew Redwine (11:01):
Podcast picture. So another thing you've covered in the show that I love is you've talked about how radio dramas can build immersive worlds and you talked about the theater of the Mind and all of that. In your opinion after, you know, spending so much time looking at how people create imaginary worlds and experience them, what do you think makes audio uniquely suited for world building? Whether it's for a story or for an ad?

Eric Molinsky (11:24):
Well, it's all in your head. I mean, I've heard people often say that audio is the most visual medium to some degree because you create it in your head, it lives in your mind. I mean the same is a little bit similar with why certain people love books and they're like, oh I hated the movie. It made it very literal. You cast these actors, you know, I love the version that it was created in my mind. And audio just gets into your head and lives in your head. And when it lives in your head you get to cast the actors. You get to imagine the world. I've even enjoyed sometimes Dr. Who, and I got really into Dr. Who I found the old classic Dr. Who really hard to watch now because of the special effects in the seventies, but they have audio dramas with the same actors.

(12:01):
And so in my mind I'm imagining those characters but with modern day special effects because it's an audio drama now, I no longer have to look at a BBC budget from the 1970s, you know? And so in my head it's the best audio, it's incredibly cinematic and they, you know, still have the same actors doing it. So I mean I think that's why audio can be really great. And I think that's why also people can have an aversion to badly done audio ads because you can crawl into their heads with something they didn't want. And they find it very irritating in a way that a bad commercial,

Stew Redwine (12:32):
Like the bad sci-fi, like the bad costumes, it's like the mirror of what you just explained. Hmm. Where you can listen to Dr. Who and imagine more whatever, but watching it, those like 70 sci-fi zipper up the back of the costume pulls you out.

Announcer VO 3 (12:47):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Stew Redwine (12:48):
I'd never quite thought of that. That like crummy audio is kind of seeing the zipper up the back of the monster.

Eric Molinsky (12:53):
Yeah. And I hear this, particularly when I go to the supermarket, they'll play like commercial radio which will have like a 15 minute block of ads or something, which is sometimes like, you know, the, the length of my shopping trip. Correct. And I'll hear a lot of these and when I hear an ad that's poorly done, you know, again I'm an audio person, it bothers me so much 'cause I'm like, you put that annoying voice in my head. It was so badly written, it grates on me in a way that like a bad TV commercial doesn't bother me at all. I just space out.

Stew Redwine (13:20):
You take it personally <laugh>. I do. It's a personal affront. You're Michael Jordan, that's when you turn the corner and you're like, then it got personal. That's all I needed for him to do that. And it,

Announcer VO 4 (13:30):
It became personal

Stew Redwine (13:31):
With me. Exactly. Well it's so intimate and it's so interesting to think, you know, there was a BBC article that Giles Martin from our strategy department sent me, and it's from two days ago, how our noisy world is seriously damaging our health from James Gallagher at the BBC. And it's just all about like unwanted noise and that it, you know, it's exactly what makes it so strong is that it goes right to the amygdala, the emotional center of the brain and it can trigger the release of stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline and activate the nervous system, which increases heart rate, blood pressure, and inflammation of the body. And over time the risk of heart attack, stroke and death increases. Oh my god, these ads could kill me. <laugh>. That's what I'm

(14:08):
Saying. <laugh>. That's what I'm saying. Okay. So let's talk about some that do a better job and then we'll actually get into grading some ads. Mm-hmm <affirmative> So I think these are ones that are interesting. When we first started talking about this, like the imaginary world of ads, you know, where you're doing your thing. My thing is audio ads and so it's what I do and I'm inside the bottle all the time looking at the back of the label. But I think the best ones can create imaginary world. So just thinking of like Geico or Progressive or Dosis, you know, the best campaigns create characters and lore is what I was kind of noticing.

Announcer VO 2 (14:39):
Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike. What day is it? Mike Hump Day.

Stew Redwine (14:42):
What is it that you think makes those campaigns work so well when you think of it from a storytelling perspective?

Eric Molinsky (14:47):
Yeah, those are my favorite ads without questioned. I think the ones where, 'cause you can create a really fun character and then completely forget. I'm certainly not the first person to ever say this that you know, the danger sometimes with an ad that's just really funny is that everyone remembers the ad but no one remembers what the ad is for. I know a million people have talked about that. I think it's true with the characters too. I think the character has to be, you know, like I love that Old Spice guy.

Announcer VO 2 (15:10):
Anything is possible when your man smelled like Old Spice and not a lady.

Eric Molinsky (15:14):
He was a great character. And it made me think of like how you want to feel <laugh> when you have a great deodorant I guess.

Stew Redwine (15:19):
Right, exactly.

Eric Molinsky (15:21):
That's how you want to feel. Or you know, I mean this is a really old reference, but the Energizer bunny, I used to refer to my grandfather as the energizer bunny. 'cause in his eighties he just didn't slow down at all. And I used to say like Grampy is the energizer bunny. Like everyone knows what that means. It's a great character. And I think that without those sunglasses, that character would not have made it the ridiculousness of a bunny and then the coolness of the glasses and then the way that it got more and more absurd. But he's also a great expression of the product of the batteries. And so I feel like, and he is Ink bunny. That's right. There's something kind of campy and absurd about it that just works. And I feel like, like I said, if the character doesn't quite match a you just put it up there. That's right. What a great design.

Stew Redwine (16:00):
It's just funny looking at him. It's like it is. Yeah. I never really, the distinctness of like the pink, the sunglasses and then, you know, the initial campaign, if I remember right is the bunny went through every other commercial.

Eric Molinsky (16:14):
Yep. I remember that was really funny. I gotta tell you, the sunglasses make that bunny a

Stew Redwine (16:18):
Hundred percent

Eric Molinsky (16:19):
The pink bunny with the drum, which is such a ridiculous thing. But the fact that he's just walking in like I am the coolest thing here, <laugh> when the sunglasses and the blank look on his face. If he had a mouth, if he was smiling, if he had eyes, it would be incredibly irritating.

Stew Redwine (16:34):
That's such a great point on the sunglasses. Another one I think of is the Dos Equis the most interesting man in the world. Like they created a whole world just around him. Yeah, yeah,

Eric Molinsky (16:42):
Yeah. Totally. And also the actor too. I mean that's even trickier is when you find the right actor who perfectly embodies that character. That is the real magic to some degree. 'cause the Bunny's designed really good design, but to find the right actor to embody that character, that's tricky as well. And then a lot of that too is the humor in terms of the deadpan humor works really well. You know, very often it's one of my biggest pet peeves is when the humor tries. You know, there's this old, I was in high school, I was taking a drama class and very wise drama teacher and he was telling me about how <laugh>, we thought him as a guru, I dunno what I think of him now, but as a teenager, he seemed to me they'd be like the Yoda of drama teachers

Announcer VO 2 (17:19):
Do or do not. There is no try.

Eric Molinsky (17:21):
He told us a story once about, it was a play and there was an actress and there was a funny line where somebody says something really cringe-worthy and the actors, the characters are silent. And then one of the character is a British thing. One of the characters says, I think I'll have that tea now. And then the audience just laughed hysterically. And the first night she killed and every night after that there was just silence. And she said to her director after about a week, she said, why was it so funny the first night? And then all the other nights no one liked it. And she said, the first night you're asking for the tea and the rest of the time you're asking for the laugh.

Stew Redwine (17:52):
Oh.

Eric Molinsky (17:53):
And so that became like a thing with us. Ask for the tea, not the laugh. And so to play it straight within the world is so much funnier than to present yourself as, look how funny this is.

Stew Redwine (18:04):
Wow. That was a wise guru.

Eric Molinsky (18:06):
And yeah, so that's why I think of the Dos Equis guy. You know, he doesn't show up as like, aren't I hilarious?

Stew Redwine (18:11):
Right. He's real. It's the same idea of being real, I guess it's integrity in the sense that there was this book called Integrity that's not about telling the truth, it's about the way they positioned Integrity is like the integrity of an aircraft to be able to achieve aerodynamics and fly and land. It has integrity, right? Everything about it works. And I think that's where people go wrong. And whether it's the commercial arts of advertising or even storytelling of not being true to itself, even though it's this thing that you're like, but wait, it was created. It's like, yeah, but there's still like a mm at the center of it. And I think that that's what even the best ads achieve. They don't disorient us by trying to be too much. Yeah. What are some of the biggest mistakes you think advertisers make when trying to advertise or trying to tell stories? I like your comedy example, you know, being true to the world, not just asking for the laugh. What are some other misses that you hear when you're cringing in the grocery story? Listening to those 15 minute ad breaks?

Eric Molinsky (19:13):
The biggest pet peeve for me is when the writing and the performance are trying way too hard to seem casual.

Stew Redwine (19:20):
<laugh>. Yes, I know

Eric Molinsky (19:22):
Exactly

Stew Redwine (19:22):
What you mean.

Eric Molinsky (19:23):
Hey, it's me, I'm your friend. Hey, what's up? Yeah, it's just, it's so calculated. Calculated casualness and relatability that's been written within an inch of its life. <laugh>, it drives me crazy. Is there an example you can think of

(19:38):
Here is an ad I heard of the grocery store, I don't remember exactly, but I think it was this woman's digestive tract was talking to her and it was a guy who was like, Hey, it's like, who's that? I'm your digestive tract. Whoa. Hello there. Yeah. You know, have you really thought much about me? No, I guess not. You know, and then he starts rattling off all these facts and I remember even actually saying out loud, that is a very chatty digestive dress, <laugh>. Oh. She's like, wow, so cool. And he is like, yeah. So you know, and like I just imagined, oh my God, I just want like that Seth Rogan to come here and be like, this is really weird <laugh>. You know, like just comment on like that's the best stuff for me as zoo win.

Stew Redwine (20:16):
Right.

Eric Molinsky (20:17):
You know, if you're gonna do that, then you've gotta just comment about like, that was really weird <laugh>, this is a very weird conversation, you know, to acknowledge the reality of the scene. And I do like that in ads when they do it. Well, I mean the classic example of that in sci-fi fantasy was Buffy, that was the kind of groundbreaking thing that Buffy did in its writing was that they would acknowledge how absurd it was in the show and in a way that it would almost like let the audience know, we know this is ridiculous. And you as the audience are thinking, oh you know, this is ridiculous. Oh okay cool. And it actually weirdly allows you to suspend your disbelief more and believe it more and go with the campiness. And of course Joss Whedon who was the head writer on that, and all of the writers were kind of trained in that school.

(20:59):
He of course went on to Marvel and then Marvel after they parted ways with him and still completely incorporated him into that. You know, my favorite example is in Infinity War where Thanos sends his minions and they're fighting Iron Man and Dr. Strange and then Spider-Man goes, shows up and he says, Hey Mr. Stark, what's the deal with this guy? And he goes, uh, he's from space and he's here to take a wizards necklace. <laugh>. Yes. <laugh> yes. And he is like, okay. He is like acknowledging this is absurd. And they do the same thing with Dr. Strange in the Spider-Man movie where you know, doc Hawk is like, where are we? And MJ is like, you're in a Wizards basement.

Stew Redwine (21:34):
Yes.

Eric Molinsky (21:34):
<laugh>, my God. You know? And he is like, magic is real here. And it's just like apparently like they do that a lot in a way that just sort of like, it lets you let your guard down that when it's too pretentious. And that was often the complaint about some of the DC Zack Snyder stuff was that it took itself so seriously.

Stew Redwine (21:50):
Yes.

Eric Molinsky (21:51):
It was actually harder to take it seriously than when it had the self-deprecating sense of humor of Marvel, which again goes right back to Buffy. And I feel like that can absolutely be associated with ads. Like I would've loved to have had a rewrite of that digestive tract ad with that sense of humor. I think it would've been much more effective.

Stew Redwine (22:08):
We talk about doing rewrites of ads on ad infinitum. That's something we want to experiment because that is such a great idea. Where then it would go,

Eric Molinsky (22:14):
Whoa, that was really weird. Exactly. You're a chatty digestive tract <laugh>.

Stew Redwine (22:19):
Thankfully our body doesn't talk to us like that. But in fact, you pointed this out like listening to your show, you pointed that out where it's just something I enjoyed about the Marvel movies. The one I think of is Hawkeye talking to the Scarlet Witch Wanda Maximov.

Eric Molinsky (22:31):
I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm a guy with an ar. Yeah.

Stew Redwine (22:34):
The city is flying. We're fighting an army of robots. I have a bow and arrow. None of this makes sense.

Eric Molinsky (22:38):
Yes, exactly.

Stew Redwine (22:39):
And you're like, thank you for saying that Hawkeye.

Eric Molinsky (22:42):
Yeah. And that's what actors always talk about whenever they're asked like how did you pull that scene off? And they always say, I just looked for the emotional reality of the scene.

Stew Redwine (22:50):
Yes.

Eric Molinsky (22:50):
And And that's literally what the dialogue says. All that matters is you as a character right now have a choice. Do you wanna be a hero or not? That's what the scene is about. The rest of it makes no sense <laugh>. And in that moment you're in that you're like, forget your logical brain. Just like this is what matters. Wanda has a choice. Does she want to be a hero? This is the moment to step up and it totally works 'cause of that line.

Stew Redwine (23:12):
Yeah. And it sets up the emotional reality. And frankly I've been reading this book by Daniel Jackson about sonic branding and really the big takeaway I'm getting from this one, and this is from back in like 2003 when it really was becoming a craft and people are putting words around it, is it's the emotion. And I mean it's Walter Merchs in the blink of an eye about film editing that there is like five reasons to make a cut and the primary one is emotion, right? It's like that is the thing.

Eric Molinsky (23:39):
He was also the guru, he was the Yoda of editing

Stew Redwine (23:41):
And he's a Yoda. He is a yoda's Yoda. Yeah. So with advertising, I actually think there's something to that. It's like what is the emotional motivation of this ad? So let's jump into that part. We're gonna listen to some recent ads and we'll get your take on them on a scale of one to 10 on the Eric Molinsky scale of audio persuasion. So the idea is we're gonna go into that place you're in the grocery store and let's say they're streaming this podcast 'cause it's all becoming like that where it's all on demand audio. But let's say maybe you've got your headphones on, you're listening to your favorite show, it's okay. But you're at the grocery store, you hear this ad, you're rating it on a scale of one to 10 of persuasiveness of like, I would remember this. I would take action based on this.

(24:22):
So that's the scale. We also grade all of these ads using audio lytics, which is our 71 point framework that we use to audit and structure persuasive audio messages. Alright, so let's break down a few recent podcast ads. What I did is I looked in Magellan at the top categories over the past year and then pulled some recent ads. So one of those is financial services, which is really interesting because they have a choice to make. It's kind of one of those things like insurance to me that's so commoditized that it's like well okay well we've gotta be distinct and consistent in how we show up to get you to want to transact with us. So we'll take a listen to those and you can check out the top advertisers in podcast, the mighty Chief audio officers@magellan.ai slash ad infinitum. So if you're ready Eric, we're just gonna jump right in. You ready to go?

Eric Molinsky (25:12):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Stew Redwine (25:13):
This first one is for Rocket Money on the Flop House. The episode title is contextually relevant. Star Trek section 31 within Harrison and Adam Akia. So they're reviewing that. So here we go.

Announcer VO 4 (25:27):
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Eric Molinsky (27:13):
It's interesting, you know, like I can hear he's really trying really hard to have enthusiasm about it like Rocket, but I feel like he also is a little dispirited by the copy itself and I feel like he's kind of fighting a little bit, like trying to sort of have enthusiasm but he's kind of feels weighted. The rocket of his enthusiasm is being weighted down by the copy <laugh> and he's trying to take off.

Stew Redwine (27:37):
Yes.

Eric Molinsky (27:38):
He's like, I gotta keep saying these words. So I don't know how much freedom he had to shift around the copy. That would be my feeling. But it certainly, you know,

Stew Redwine (27:46):
It didn't sound like a lot to me right? Because of how jam packed it was

Eric Molinsky (27:50):
A for effort, but I don't know what else was going on in terms of how much leeway he actually had.

Stew Redwine (27:55):
So from a persuasion standpoint, you're walking around listening to your favorite podcast, that ad plays

Eric Molinsky (28:00):
Well it's not a bad idea. I actually think it's kind of interesting. I mean my favorite part was that you're a better man than I, you know, because I feel like that was the moment that was the most relatable to me. That was the moment where it all clicked. The rest of it felt like a lot of ad copy.

Stew Redwine (28:11):
So on a scale of one to 10 Molinsky, 10 Molinsky being the most persuasive, how many molinsky did it achieve? Oh God. Or do you wanna do two?

Eric Molinsky (28:21):
I can give you another one so you have a reference point. Sure, sure, sure. I'm just like in the molinsky of ads, I'm like, my God, I could give out Molinsky for Batman suits, <laugh>. And I don't know if I can necessarily give Molinsky for ads. I feel far more confident in my opinion about the Live Action Batman. But go ahead, gimme another one.

Stew Redwine (28:35):
Okay, well I mean I think you were gracious. I think you were gracious. I'll hold back on the audio lytics scores till the end 'cause I want to get your scores first. So let's just jump right into the second one. Again, one of the top categories is financial services. So let's see how these folks are showing up. This is from Capital One on Ted Talks daily from just a couple weeks ago.

Announcer VO 1 (28:57):
Ted Talks Daily is sponsored by Capital One in my house. We subscribe to everything, music, tv, even dog food and it rocks until you have to manage it all, which is where Capital One comes in. Capital One credit card holders can easily track, block or cancel recurring charges right from the Capital One mobile app at no additional cost. With one sign in, you can manage all your subscriptions all in one place. Learn more at capital one.com/subscriptions. Terms and conditions apply.

Eric Molinsky (29:29):
Okay, yeah that feels solid. You know what's interesting too is that when you get into radio, the thing about audio is that it's what you read, the copy that you're looking at is so different than you would expect for writing for the I versus for the ear. And you know, I know that Ira Glass has talked about, I mean he's given many lectures before on how to write for audio and I think he said something to the effect of you need to dumb down the language as much as possible without dumbing down the ideas. And you know, but I think what he means is simplify the language as much as possible without simplifying the ideas. Because the way that ideas go into our heads is just very different when you're talking about words. And that's why he gets parody a lot. But he's so effective at being like, you know, so does this guy, he lives in New York, he's a waiter, he works at a fancy restaurant.

(30:17):
If you were to read that, it would look like, you know, see spot run. But then you know, every sentence is an idea that's in your head. And if you go back to even like Edward r Murrow, like his, I actually once worked with a print journalist in trying to get her to write for the ear and she was very, very resistant. She was very proud of her print journalism and she's like, I'm not gonna do that. This American life kind of stuff. That's like sea spot run. If you wanna hear something really great listen to Edward r Murrow's broadcast from London during the war. And I'm like, oh okay that sounds great. So I listened to it. He was doing the exact same thing. He was like, London nighttime, it's doc Foggy <laugh>. We hear the planes. Yeah, exactly. People are scared. I'm like, it's the same thing <laugh>. You know, it's just like it gets into your head. So, and the more complicated, the more you're writing sentences for the eye, the harder it is to let them sink into your ears. And so that's why it's really important to be more conversational. Not in the writing, I mean in the writing. Yes. But you have to really work hard to get that writing conversational. So anyway, my point is that that was better <laugh> doing that.

Stew Redwine (31:22):
Great. Okay. So now you have a relative value, which to me is key of any persuasive message. Alright, so Capital One rocket money on a scale of one to 10 Linsky for persuasiveness. Yeah I, I'd give that a seven or eight. I think that's pretty high. So seven and a half. What's

Eric Molinsky (31:36):
Rocket money that would go lower? That would probably be more like a four or five. I hate to criticize, I know how hard it's to read these things so I hate to criticize other people's reads. But yes, I would probably put that more like a four or five.

Stew Redwine (31:47):
Hey feedback is the Breakfast of Champions. The gig is notes <laugh>, I gotta use that. All I do is get notes. Dude.

Eric Molinsky (31:55):
Feedback is the Breakfast of Champions. I'm telling you

Stew Redwine (31:58):
It is the truth. All right, here we go. Here's the next one. Let's see how these guys do. USAA on healing Honeys formerly open house with Luis Room Ball.

Announcer VO 2 (32:07):
Don't you love it when things are both easier and more affordable? Like when the rain washes your car for you or like when you save up to 10% by bundling your renters and auto insurance with USAA bundle with USAA and start saving, get a quote today. Usaa.

Eric Molinsky (32:23):
Uh, so this is a personal thing. I don't love that style of ads. I don't love it. I mean it's well done. I think that the rain washing your car is a great example but those kinds of ads just kind of wash over me.

Stew Redwine (32:35):
Describe that to me. What do you mean that kind of ad

Eric Molinsky (32:38):
That is much more of a, I mean there is a whole art to commercial radio ads. So you know, and I don't want to sort of like take something that people who know a lot about commercial radio ads may be like, what are you talking about? That's a really well done ad. But for me personally, you know, it sounds very commercial radio and in a way that makes me space out frankly. That's just sort of, I mean I'm listening now but I mean if I had heard that in the supermarket, the rain in your car would've definitely caught my attention for a second. But I'd be mostly looking at my grocery list personally.

Stew Redwine (33:06):
And what do you think of their use of a Sonic logo at the end there? The USAA?

Eric Molinsky (33:11):
Those are good. Those definitely catch my attention. I'm all for those. I like those. If they're really quick and they catch your attention, I mean as long as it's not obnoxious, I think that's definitely effective.

Stew Redwine (33:19):
Yeah, that's what I think. And that's Cesium song that did that. And we've had Colleen Faye on a couple times and she wrote audio branding with Larry Minsky, which is a good read and I know a lot of thought and care went into the Sonic logo component of it, of that USAA, what it is to communicate. And sometimes I think it's like I use in making that infinitum, this dog clicker to like mark edits and it's like there is a piece of all of this to me that is Pavlovian. And so if nothing else, let's say Eric Molinsky tunes out for the most part on the ad because it's almost like what you're saying is it's so predictable. Almost like if you ask 10 different commercial radio producers to make this ad for USAA and here you have this sonic logo, you need to use this song, which is probably what it sounds like. The brief would've been something like this, right? And then oh you need to talk about the 10% bundling and the voice needs to sound like this. Probably the truth is, nine out of 10 producers would've produced something very similar to this, which in a sense then is like, it's exactly what you'd expect almost from like your Bed Bath and beyond direct mail that we all get. Right? And it disappears. It just disappears. You know, I've been thinking too

Eric Molinsky (34:26):
About well what commercial radio ads did I like that really stuck out at me. And so I grew up in Boston and people in Boston have such a love for local ads. They're these people that are characters. You know,

Stew Redwine (34:41):
Look who's got Smart Pack.

Eric Molinsky (34:42):
There was Jordan's Furniture was the most famous one where these two brothers and the way they would give the directions to their Nashville and New Hampshire would be like left on Spit Brook, right on Daniel Webster and everybody as school kids, we would repeat that over and over again because we loved how authentically local they were and they were trying to be funny but an endearingly goofy way. And they created like a little empire out of that. Like they would, you know, people have such local pride and fondness for Jordan's furniture and there's a new one that my brother is obsessed with. It's like a basement proofing. But the guy again has this very thick accent and his tagline is, it's game over for water.

Announcer VO 2 (35:21):
It's game over for water.

Eric Molinsky (35:22):
Ah. And he loves it. He says it all the time. To me it's game over Ada. But what's interesting to me is whenever people try to capture that and they get actors and they hire them to do Boston accents and they write bits for them, it is so cringeworthy because it is so fake. And I think what people love about those ads is the authenticity of them. And you know, the minute you hire an actor to try to do a Boston accent, it backfires horrendously. So I'm just thinking about like what commercial radio ads did I love? You know? And I know people even here in New York where I live, they have the same fondness for the local New York ads they grew up with.

Stew Redwine (35:59):
Yes.

Eric Molinsky (35:59):
Because of that sense of, you know, this guy, he's real, you can't replicate that. It's impossible to replicate that. That's why people love that. Where's the beef commercial? And way, way back in the eighties, it was this old lady that was just her why's the beef. And so I think authenticity is the hardest thing to have in an ad. You can't fake it very well. And I think that's what grates on my nerves is when I feel like it's a sense of faked authenticity or performative authenticity to some degree.

Stew Redwine (36:26):
Yeah, exactly. I think that is the alchemy that makes, I mean it goes back to Aristotle for me. And sometimes I'm like, Hey guys, he already figured this out so let's just kind of, we don't have to reinvent it but ah, go ahead. But pathos, ethos and logos in that reason emotion, but then the trust, credibility and that, I just try to keep in my mind that he was weight those three equally. Please try to enjoy

Eric Molinsky (36:47):
Each fact

Stew Redwine (36:47):
Equally. That credibility component is huge of like, do I trust that this thing is real and authentic? You know, you also said we're not fully persuaded until we consider a thing demonstrated. And so it's like, is this real? Can I trust it? And that's local radio. It's funny you say that 'cause the next episode that'll come out before this one is about local radio and local radio advertisers. And the guest for it is from LA that then this guy was able to franchise this thing nationwide. But it's one 800 no cuffs with Darren Cki. And you know, his tagline at the end is like one 800 no cuffs. 'cause nobody looks good in handcuffs unless you're into that sort of thing.

Announcer VO 2 (37:22):
No one looks good in handcuffs, you know, unless you're into that sort of thing.

Stew Redwine (37:26):
And it's like, look at you get a LA like local people without fail, you're not alone. I talked to somebody from, I'm from Kansas City, sunflower Dodge and oh Laha. Yes. You know, it's like everyone has that and it's like the local people, it's not calculated. They're just like, this is who I am and it's real. And then the big brands go and do something where like you're saying it's performative or it's like, hey, we're just two people talking in the grocery store. It's like, ugh. It's a struggle.

Eric Molinsky (37:52):
Yeah, I mean CarVal ice cream too is a huge one. And that was the other interesting thing is that I discovered that New York and Boston each had their local CarVal radio ads. And so people who grew up in Boston remember CarVal ice cream. But then when I hear people in New York reminisce about it, it's with New York accents.

Stew Redwine (38:07):
That's funny. You know, there was a, I don't know if it was this American life, I feel like it was an NPR show. It was about this song that somebody licensed to cities. So for tourism, yes, it was this American life. Yeah, for the tourism board where it's like, you know, whatever it was like this is Spokane Home. And people are like, that's my song, that's my city. And then they go to this other city and they hear, this is Wichita. It's just a fascinating how we really attach locally. Local has a lot to tell us. Okay, so USAA, they've got points, we're gonna give 'em some points for the Sonic logo. But in general, you gave Rocket Money 4.5, capital one, 7.5 USAA is earning a,

Eric Molinsky (38:51):
Oh, I hate to say it, I'm gonna go low on this one. And again, this is my personal preference. This is not like, you know, very, very personal as I would give it a two. Just me please. God knows I'm not the arbiter of ad quality. This is so my very idiosyncratic taste. My hat is off to you. That's a low score. Sorry, the logo is good, but again, this is just me. I'm really very particular about not loving those kinds of ads.

Stew Redwine (39:19):
I get it. Okay. The gig is notes. Here's the next one from our friends at American Express, which also have a sonic logo designed by our friends over at Made Music Studio. Here we go.

Announcer VO 5 (39:31):
Bring along an American Express card to open the door to rewards wherever you go. Morning coffee. Run with an old friend, earn cash back, weekend getaway, earn miles dinner at the hottest restaurant in town. You get the idea no matter the place or the plan. Amex rewards your inner explorer. See if you pre-qualify for an American Express card with no impact on your credit score, learn more at american express.com/check-four-offers your credit score may be impacted if you accept a card terms apply

Eric Molinsky (40:02):
<laugh>. Yeah, that actually worked for me. And I know that also is obviously very commercial, but it's really well laid out. The benefits are laid out very clearly. The sound effects did a lot for me is written in a way that's clear. Again, not my personal preference, that kind of ad, but it totally worked for me. That one I actually would think about like, oh, that actually would be useful.

Stew Redwine (40:21):
Isn't that funny? Yeah, I agree. I tend to agree personally, I know I'm not given the official like performance scores yet, but it did use Theater of the Mind. Now the other thing that's at work here with American Express, like I had mentioned, made music designed their whole sonic identity system. Every touch point from the sound that you hear and it's, that's the American Express, Sonic Hook, bam boom, boom, boom. You and I have heard that. We've heard it more than we know and it was in there in the melody of the song. And you know, there's something in behavioral science called the Mere Exposure effect that if we're exposed to a stimulus over and over of human being is exposed, we kind of naturally think we become desensitized. And we actually in advertising have this real misnomer that we're like, oh, it gets creative wear out. People don't like it. It's actually there's like inside of us in our brain chemistry. We prefer that which we recognize, right? Because if you just think from a survival standpoint, 'cause you know you can anticipate so you know what's coming. So you're gonna have preference for it. So when someone has a Sonic logo, like USAA, even though they packaged it poorly for you, American Express has this sonic logo that this melody that down inside Eric Molinsky and Stew Redwine survival mechanism. We're gonna prefer it if we recognize

Eric Molinsky (41:29):
It. Yeah. I actually love the Farmer's logo. I think it's really fun. We are farmers. That's a really fun one

Stew Redwine (41:37):
There. You know it. You just did it.

Eric Molinsky (41:38):
I literally just did it.

Stew Redwine (41:39):
Okay, so USAA got a two, American Express gets a

Eric Molinsky (41:43):
Uh, yeah, now I feel bad. I should probably bump them up to a three. The Sonic logo is good for work for me. I give this a six or seven.

Stew Redwine (41:50):
Okay, that's fine. We can do that six or I'm gonna give it six and a half. Six and a half. Sure. All right, so here's the last one and we can round this out. Our friends over at the great and Powerful Bank of America, nice to bank there in la. I have banked there. They reminded me yesterday on a call with them. They're like, well thank you Mr. Red Wine for being a customer for 32 years. I was like, what? But I'm only 32 years old. <laugh>, here we go.

Announcer VO 3 (42:18):
Future you faces some big expectations, work out more, go to bed earlier. And most importantly, make smart money decisions. Thankfully today you has Bank of America one place with tools and guidance to help balance tasks from budgeting to saving. So you can just be you with big plans, do more with a bank that asks what would you like the power to do? Explore our tips and more@bankofamerica.com slash future. You.

Eric Molinsky (42:47):
Well, of course the science fiction person to me loves the idea of present in future you <laugh> and you know, the decisions you make and all that kind of stuff. So of course I'm just like, yeah, you got me with future. The word future you is certainly, you know, the high concept. I liked the read actually too. Music I didn't love as much, but I liked the read, I liked the, it was a high concept idea that fit pretty well with the services that they're selling. Yeah, I think my only criticism is didn't love the music, but other than that, it totally worked. I remember it. You know,

Stew Redwine (43:14):
So you give it a,

Eric Molinsky (43:15):
Yeah, I give it a solid seven, you know, I mean if we're gonna get really high up there for me, it's gonna be like again, it's so idiosyncratic. It's gonna be very quirky. It's gonna be very, like, I love Helen Zaltman on her podcast, the Illusionist. I love her ads. And she's so funny and so idiosyncratic and it just feels like she's telling you a story. And it goes beyond, there's not a lot of people that can pull that kind of thing off.

Stew Redwine (43:39):
So it's kind of like if the Rocket Money guy had gone for it, <laugh>, I guess, right? That would've worked for you. Like if he would've been like, it's like a Rocket J take it off man. And like told a whole story. Not necessarily clowning, but if he had like gone more with that and then gone into, Hey, you're a better man than I, he lost it. The Eric Molinsky race because of just how much copy there was.

Eric Molinsky (43:59):
Yeah, I mean I think that you could have gone into, I mean we can all relate to the idea of subscriptions. You forget about, you know, I would've told a story, you know, where like my wife's the one who does the bills and she'll just be like, you know, why are we giving this much amount of money to this site? And I'm like, oh, 'cause five years ago I signed up for it. And she's like, did you use it? No. You know, and then she gives me this side eye, well, you know, maybe you can prevent these side eye moments. That's what I would've personally done with it.

Stew Redwine (44:25):
Yes. I mean it's funny because of all of these, we'll do a little roundup here. So we listen to five ads for financial services, which is one of the top categories in podcast spinning over the last year. And you can see top spenders from recent months at magellan.ai/ad infinitum for you Mighty Chief Audio Officers listening. So these are five different folks showing up to advertise on podcast, right? For financial services. Only one of them was Host Red. Everything else was produced. That's what I thought was interesting. Have you seen that shift in your own show?

Eric Molinsky (44:54):
With me, it's, my goal is to always have host red ads. I always prefer if possible, to have host red ads. It's very, very important to me.

Stew Redwine (45:01):
I love

Eric Molinsky (45:02):
That. But if I don't, then yeah, I have the automated ads. But you know, luckily like this past year I had mostly, almost entirely hosted ads, which I was very, very happy about. So I actually have no idea. They're also so geo-targeted that sometimes somebody will hear something that they didn't like and you know, or they thought was not a really good fit for my show and will try to track it down. And they're literally like, uh, could you tell me exactly where they were and the time of day? You know, like they have to tell me, well it was 7:00 PM on a Sunday and I was driving through Sacramento. And that's the only way they could even begin to track that ad down. So who knows, who knows what they're listening to. I have no idea. And that's why I love to, you know, to have as many host red ads as possible.

Stew Redwine (45:40):
I really like, and we talked about your host Red Ads and I agree. You know, we'd say at Oxford Road, save the live read. So here's what's interesting from the audio lytics scores is they tracked pretty closely to each other. So audio lytics is based on persuasiveness, you know, how likely is it that someone's gonna take action? And the way to think of it is almost like if you're walking door to door selling knives, you know, could you get the person to buy the knives right now by having these 71 different components that they're either present or not present And it's, we use it directionally and the top score for audio lytics is a 90%. But here's what I find interesting. Like we had some difference in like, you know, you gave U-S-A-A-A 3.0 it was your lowest scored item, particularly 'cause it just didn't land for you. It was the second to lowest one here. So we flipped. But with Audio Lytics and Eric Molinsky on the scale of Molinsky, Lytics <laugh>, but Rocket Money and USAA were both at the

Eric Molinsky (46:31):
Bottom. Okay. I think I also just have more, 'cause it's host red, you know, I'm just kind of like, I get it man. <laugh>,

Stew Redwine (46:38):
I do like, it did sound like he tried and it kind of went p he's like, yeah, it's my energy level.

Eric Molinsky (46:45):
I think that's why I was more generous because I was just like, dude, I get it. <laugh>,

Stew Redwine (46:48):
You feel his

Eric Molinsky (46:48):
Pain? Yeah, I feel your pain man.

Stew Redwine (46:50):
Amex, we both had in third place, bank of America both had in second place. So you tracked right along with audio lytics again, that's what I think is so cool is like there are, if we can back away from it, you and I didn't work on either of these campaigns and use the system and you're on the molinsky scale of persuasion. Like, you know, we hold these truths to be self-evident. Like we can identify what messes people up is they get so far inside of it or inside the brief or frankly inside like, you know, defending their job justification or whatever it is that they can't just view it objectively anymore. So that's what I love about doing this.

Eric Molinsky (47:23):
I'm very pleasantly surprised to learn that the MOLINSKY score is actually

Stew Redwine (47:27):
Ride along. Wow. Yeah. And yeah, and like the thing at the bottom, you know, is like we're talking, it was a 0.5 on a molinsky and it was 1% in audio lytics. So it's 80 and an 81% top score is 90%. Anyway, top one was Capital One for both. So both audio lytics and on the Molinsky scale, capital One got the top score and that was the one where, you know, it painted a picture of talking about subscriptions, which is something that we can all relate to. Frankly, the way it started was TED Talks daily is sponsored by Capital One. I don't think that's the worst. You know, I know when you and I were talking earlier about Host Red, like uniquely segwaying in, I mean I think there's a lot of nuance to all of this. This was a produced spot, so it's like, hey, let me indicate who this is by say the name early and often and then it just comes right in to say that the ease of use of Capital One and that there's no cost to using this service to track subscriptions and you can do it all in one place.

(48:20):
Like, you know, ease of use, simple path, you know, it was a clear winner.

Announcer VO 2 (48:24):
Well deck, here's the deal, I'm the best there is.

Stew Redwine (48:26):
And it wasn't trying too hard. Like those other ones that we identified to be clever and not quite get all the way there, try to be our buddy and not quite get all the way there for the chief audio officers listening, now that we see that, like, okay, these pretty much track together and listening to all these and thinking through your lens of Imaginary Worlds and the time you spent talking about, I mean you're one, you're in radio and two talking to folks about the theater of the mine. What is your recommendation to these teams and to other chief audio officers listening who are responsible for getting a return on their investment in audio spaces?

Eric Molinsky (49:00):
Well, I mean we definitely have talked a lot about Res, so I don't want to go over what we've said, but you know, everything we said before about the sort of fake buddy thing, you know, or the casualness, the word salads, all that kind of stuff. Certainly there also seems to be, apparently a lot of European ads are very aggressive. People often complain to me that, you know, my automated ads, somebody's screaming at them in German or Swedish. And I'm like, I've never heard anyone complain about that with some of the English language ads. So obviously that's not good. But I gotta say that the sound effects surprised me how effective they were. The sound of the coffee, the sound of the plane. And those are, you know, very, those are probably just taken from Sound library somewhere,

Stew Redwine (49:40):
Right?

Eric Molinsky (49:40):
You know, it wasn't like they <laugh>, they went out to LAX to get the most authentic sound of a plane and yet it just worked. It absolutely totally worked for me and is very simple and very quick. But it's interesting, like the music too is can be kind of an afterthought as well. I don't know if it is an afterthought, but in some cases, you know, it's a big issue as well in terms of like whether you can find the right music that kind of syncs along with the voice and hits the tone quite right. Like I said, that last ad, the Bank of America, and my only criticism was the music didn't really work for me.

Stew Redwine (50:09):
One, I think often what happens with music, and I was just reading this too, in this Sonic branding book by Daniel Jackson is like, there's an initial track that's thrown out there almost as a placeholder. And people, once our brains associate a sound with a certain other stimuli, it's very difficult to pull it apart. So it'll just get married it. And then it's like, well that's a song we're using. Or I think sometimes it's like sound fatigue where just song fatigue from having been a part of this process of like, they don't like the first one or the first 10 or whatever, and you go round and round it goes, and eventually it's just sort of like, it just peters out, you know? So I think the main thing I'm hearing from you is avoid the word salad. Be true to who you are. Save the live reads, and don't forget just the simplicity of how sound design and music can be used to construct a world in the listener's mind and make an emotional connection.

Eric Molinsky (50:58):
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Stew Redwine (51:00):
Well thank you so much for joining Add Infinitum. It was awesome having you on and I'm still making my way through your podcast. Where can listeners hear more about Imaginary Worlds and explore your work?

Eric Molinsky (51:13):
Well, it is, as they often say, wherever you get your podcasts, you can find Imaginary Worlds, you know Apple, Spotify, obviously the most popular ones out there. And then of course, and my website, worlds podcast.org, you can learn lots of stuff about the show. You can look at the back catalog, you can cherry pick, you know, I think you were telling me earlier that you immediately went to all the Star Trek and Star Wars episodes, but you know, I jump around, I always cover video games, tabletop role-playing games, literature. You know when my approach is, the way I always describe my show is if NPR sent their reporters to Comic-Con and decided that's actually all they ever want to cover, that's what my show sounds like

Stew Redwine (51:47):
And it delivers. It is such a delight. For those chief audio officers listening, one, consider advertising on Imaginary worlds. Two, listen to it just to explore creativity. And three, Eric Reeds are fantastic. It's a masterclass in how to seamlessly transition. So thanks again, Eric for coming on at Infinitum. Thank you. To our listeners, thank you for tuning in to Ad Infinitum. If you love this episode, let us know with an honest five star review and if there's an audio ad or campaign you'd like us to break down, drop me a note at stew, STE w@oxfordroad.com. And don't forget, if you want to see the latest podcast rankings, you can check that out at magellan.ai/ad infinitum for a free demo of magellan.ai. And until next time, remember to have fun making the ads work.