Stew Redwine (00:00):
This is Add infinitum.

(00:18):
Add infinitum is the award-winning podcast solely focused on audio ads, the creatives who make them and or the latest thinking that informs them how the space is evolving. And my favorite part, a roundup of recent audio ads with Analysis by yours truly, stew Redwine and each episode's guest. This is season three, episode nine of Ad infinitum titled Put a Little English on it. There's this idea I've been chewing on lately. That strategy in advertising is the UK's greatest export. And when you dig into the roots it tracks because strategy didn't start in a boardroom. And I mean that in the sense of strategy as an aspect of advertising. It started on the battlefield. The British military, especially during the World Wars, had this obsession with designing the right strategy before engaging. Many times when the world wars are reflected upon when the Americans joined, it's ready fire than aim, it's the British who fought long and hard and took a very planful approach.

(01:17):
In fact, there's a famous part of their martial history known as redundancy and that they would plan to make sure they had two of everything that they needed. So a very planful approach. And I've come to really respect and understand with people like Stephen King and Stanley Pollett, that what we know of as planning and we'll get into this planning and strategy and what the difference is came out of the UK and has a massive impact on your advertising if you choose to apply it. So today with two of the sharpest minds, I note Stephen Abraham and Giles Martin. We're going to talk about what that legacy means for audio advertising, how the best audio ads and the best ads start with a plan, believe it or not, <laugh> and why if you want to win with your ads, you better think like a strategist. So to you, strategist and thinkers behind the ads out there, the people who ask, what are we trying to do here?

(02:03):
This episode is for you and who Better to Talk Planning or strategy? We'll get into that with Steven then two UK natives, Oxford Rhodes own Stephen Abraham, president of International and Giles Martin EVP strategy. Together we're diving into British planning culture, Unilever's podcast ad spend and what separates a decent brief from a proper battle plan. You look at American ad history, it's showmanship, it's PT Barnum, it's jingles and jello and razzle-dazzle. But in the UK it's cerebral planning wasn't about the pitch, it was about the purpose. Stephen King described account planning as the conscience of the agency that's very British, deeply principled, quietly fierce, always armed with a laminated chart. And today we need more of that fewer slogans, more clarity of aim, and really, especially with ai just supercharging what humans have already achieved, making only 16% of advertising memorable and able to be attributed to the brand. Now you've supercharged that with AI and activate human laziness, it's only gonna get worse. So Steve and Giles, where did planning or strategy really begin for you guys?

Steven Abraham (03:14):
Hmm. And firstly, thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. Governor.

Stew Redwine (03:17):
Yeah, thanks for coming on. This is fun.

Giles Martin (03:20):
Thanks for using the word proper. Is that a British word? Do Americans use the word proper? Yes,

Stew Redwine (03:24):
I've learned to that one. Cheers. Cheers is another British word.

Giles Martin (03:28):
Did anyone put the kettle on you? Uh, we to bring us here, not offer us a cup of tea. I mean I'm not coming back.

Stew Redwine (03:34):
What do you think all this though, were you so steeped in it when you came up in advertising in the UK that you did? Did you even appreciate that like thinking strategically is different and then like your exposure to the United States? Like do you see that dichotomy what I'm setting up here?

Steven Abraham (03:49):
To a degree. Firstly, I, I don't wanna get pulled into any conversation about saying the UK is better or worse than the us. I think that would be irresponsible and not true. But what I would sort of say is I think there's a difference in the UK market whereby we discern very clearly between what the role of strategy is versus planning. And I think sometimes it can get perhaps a little bit mixed up here. And for me, if I can, you know, obviously I've been on chat GPT all morning trying to make sure I get the answers right.

Stew Redwine (04:18):
<laugh>, okay, good. That makes my point.

Steven Abraham (04:19):
No, but joking apart, you know, I mean strategy's about really determining what you're gonna go and do and why you're doing it. Okay. And to put that into perspective, it's about, you know, direction and purpose, the choices that are gonna be made and those priorities in a campaign. Whereas planning's about I think how you execute on that strategy and the detail. So to summarize it, it's you know, strategy's kind of like a sort of advertising compass and the planning piece is the map that gets you there. So that's sort of where I think we have a very clear distinction and I think the best plans fall out of a lot of thoughtful time spent on decoding a client's brief to get the strategy right. And then when you deliver on it, the execution falls out.

Stew Redwine (04:56):
I think that's right. I mean that's what I've seen you apply since you joined. 'cause you joined Oxford Road in November, 2020 and Giles you joined

Giles Martin (05:04):
May, 2018.

Stew Redwine (05:06):
Yeah. And you've seen me grow in my appreciation of this, haven't you Giles

Giles Martin (05:11):
For sure.

Stew Redwine (05:11):
I know you both have because I've been full speed ahead, don't I do have a plan, plan of attack

Giles Martin (05:17):
The American plan,

Stew Redwine (05:19):
Right? So what are you coming up in it or did you even come up in advertising in the uk? I guess, I don't know. I did you

Giles Martin (05:25):
I just wanted to say something about the difference in advertising culture between the UK and the us.

Stew Redwine (05:30):
Yes, that's what I'm after.

Giles Martin (05:31):
'cause that's what you were talking about, right? Yeah,

Stew Redwine (05:32):
That's what I'm talking about. Yeah.

Giles Martin (05:33):
But this is not so much from an internal agency like planning perspective and no I did not really grow up in planning and you know Steven, I think it's probably, you know, better place to speak to some of this stuff. But this has come up for me in the context of attribution recently. 'cause I work a lot with attribution and we're doing a lot of expansion into international markets. And so I'm starting to have conversations with brands about the differences in, you know, expectations for advertising in different cultures. Like will people use a vanity URL in Germany? Will people use a promo code you know in Spain And when I first came to the US and I'd be really interested to hear what your experience was, but like the river of advertising is kind of overwhelming. Like it's a deluge just the amount of billboards and the amount of TV commercials and the amount of radio commercials. It's, it feels like it's sort of 1520 minutes an hour and then the amount of 800 numbers and sort of direct response commercials. Like I've sort of forgotten all that now. But it's only recently as I was having these conversations with you know, clients looking at other countries, I've started to think back to you know, what is the US like and how is it different and that culture of oh 800 numbers and you know, next 20 callers get a free set of Marvin gay CDs.

(06:44):
You know like that's all very, very different. And I think it does support your sort of general notion that the US is more sort of yell and sell hot dogs, get your hot dogs and sort of push it out there and sort of attack the market and like can we get a response here? Whereas the UK as Steve is saying, it's like got these nuanced distinctions between you know, let's really put a strategy together and let's have a supporting plan that really allows us to pay off. And I definitely think that there's something meaningful to the distinction.

Stew Redwine (07:11):
Well and I think I wouldn't have even wanted to do this episode four years ago <laugh>, I thought the plan of attack is attack was a superior plan. And so what I'm trying to do with this episode is give to other people how my eyes have been opened and I really have seen it through you guys and what I do see as a UK approach 'cause I read up a little bit, I'm a fan of advertising history, I'm not an advertising historian of like taking that thoughtful approach 'cause it's the big gaps I see in the work. Not gonna mention specific clients but like from both of you but particularly you Steve and like talking about the comm system and seeing like how do we go up to make sure we're taking a strategic approach to this.

Steven Abraham (07:51):
Yeah and I think what we tend to spend a lot of time doing in the UK as well is we're talking about audio planning, right?

Stew Redwine (07:57):
Sure. We can keep that audio planning. Yeah,

Steven Abraham (07:59):
Well what I'm sort of saying is we are all audio,

Stew Redwine (08:01):
Yes

Steven Abraham (08:01):
We're within the world of audio

Stew Redwine (08:03):
Completely.

Steven Abraham (08:03):
But if we take a step back and we sort of say, well audio is essentially one single platform. So you could argue as a tactic that falls out of a strategy, right? So if a client comes to us and says I want Oxford Road to put together an informed and thoughtful audio plan for me, they've essentially done a strategy before. 'cause audio's coming out of that strategy as a tactic, as a platform to use. And what I think we've managed to do successfully at Oxford is take a step back and say look, okay we know we are one component, part of a communication system. Let's think about what this brand is also doing elsewhere so that when we then apply our logic and thinking on what's happening in audio, it's gonna be augmenting that and additive to an overarching for want of a better term.

(08:43):
And I hate using industry jargon communication ecosystem, right? So therefore we add audio to it, we make sure it's complimenting what they're doing in other media so the whole becomes greater than the sum of the parts rather than just thinking about audio as a silo. And what I think that's managed to allow us to do or certainly with a lot of our clients is get further up that totem pole of the strategy, right? Because we can now also comment on what they're doing in other ways and talk about whether it's the right amount of money to be spending, if it's gonna compliment those other medias. It's understanding media as a system even if we are only really focused on one aspect of it. Does that make sense?

Stew Redwine (09:16):
It does make sense. And I want to ask you guys, 'cause I've watched this happen, how do you guys help? You both helped me bridge the gap going from tactics to strategy but I'll, you know, this is for chief audio officers. So there's these calls where you know, we know the chief audio officers listening are dealing with their teams as well where you're dealing with an individual that even when you're saying like well we need to talk about the strategy, we need to talk about the plan, we need to take a st can you gimme some strategic ideas that give all tactical ideas? How do you get a mind to begin to understand the difference between the two?

Steven Abraham (09:47):
Um, <laugh> understand the, the fundamental goal of the brief right before you start falling into we should be buying this show, we should be buying that really truly understand the audience better than the target, better than the client themselves. Understand that audience intimately before deciding on which tactic you're gonna apply. 'cause if you don't really know the audience brilliantly, then everything else is just guesswork. That's good advice.

Giles Martin (10:11):
I think also like so much of it starts at the brand level. Okay. And, and you know, if we think about our earlier careers working probably, you know, in UK agencies or big agencies, you know working on bigger brands, like there may have been a lot of strategic thought put into how the brand is positioned, you know, at a very high level maybe that's, you know, could even work across international markets for example. And if that strategy is clearly in place and there are sort of individual communication requirements, you know, at a given specific time or any given specific channel you can make, you know those executions and tactical ideas, you know they flow out of that bigger picture framework that sort of sets guidelines for guardrails for like what the brand and the company wants to communicate and the tone it wants to set. And I think, you know, some of the brands we work with are more, they're younger in their life cycle. And so that type of sort of, you know, I don't want say some term like brand architecture but like there's some legitimacy to some of that sort of big picture brand thinking where you really are trying to steer in a certain direction and there's a real strategy set. And then there's also quite a lot of BS if I can use that where

Stew Redwine (11:18):
Well okay but that's where I've seen my initial, I'm like this is the tale of two stews. Like I'm seeing my initial resistance to it. But it's kind of, I also think that's kind of a not a real argument because the truth is if you can align on a vision, if you can align on a goal, like that's how you motivate people. That's how you run a company. Like without a vision the people perish. That stuff is actually, it's weird. It's like it can sound disingenuous or eye rolly and I suppose it is if it's not thoughtful but it actually is like you have to have the highest and best aim. You have to have clarity on the highest and best aim. And for me at least it's like we're in tactics land, we're in audio and we're talking about how to da da da and you start to interrogate it back up the chain and there isn't a highest investing <laugh>.

Steven Abraham (12:01):
Yeah,

Giles Martin (12:01):
That's often the case.

Steven Abraham (12:02):
That's often when ads begin to meander as well, right?

Stew Redwine (12:05):
Yeah.

Steven Abraham (12:06):
You know, truly strategic audio a begins long before the mic goes live <laugh>.

Stew Redwine (12:10):
And what do you guys think about something else? I think about a lot is the difference in audio between the UK and the United States. A decision point was made in the two countries in the early days where American radio became commercialized and radio in the United Kingdom did not.

Steven Abraham (12:25):
Well because before it was the British broadcasting corporation who basically had all of the licenses for the AirWave. It was that movie, it was a working title movie, I think it was called based on the story of radio Caroline, which was the start of commercial radio where they would go out into the waters of the British channel and be just outside the AirWave zones and could actually play but terrible rock and roll music that nobody wanted to listen to. You know? And it was all pomp and ceremony on the BBC and it was all sort of core blinding and as your father on the on radio Caroline, which is fantastic. I'm not sure that answered your question.

Stew Redwine (12:57):
No it does a little, I mean I just think you know, two countries separated by common language that we can draw conclusions between advertising in the United States and the United Kingdom. But they're also different. Like the experience of radio is different and podcasts, let's just make it audio. The experience of audio is different in the two countries.

Steven Abraham (13:14):
Yeah. But I think that, I don't wanna get drawn into a history lesson

Stew Redwine (13:17):
'cause I do No this is the show to get into it.

Steven Abraham (13:20):
Mine will be vaguely Winston Church esque and his perception of history versus the truist perception of history. No history of the English speaking peoples. But you know, after the war, after the war <laugh> it was um, <laugh>

Giles Martin (13:33):
Sounds like I read that

Steven Abraham (13:34):
Actually. I mean the two countries were in very different positions, right? Yes. America was incredibly wealthy and there was a huge amount of sort of commercial activity and unbelievable the UK was on its knees post the war and so everything was run through the state and the BBC would have control over the media and all that kind of stuff. And commercial radio was just not necessarily, people didn't have the money to actually get the equipment to actually do

Giles Martin (13:55):
It or to buy the stuff they wanted to sell.

Steven Abraham (13:57):
Yeah. So we were rebuilding a country or London, whatever, you know, southeast of England that had been bombed to ship. I mean this is an important aspect. In the eighties, the conservatives came to power in England and I was always a staunch sort of red wedge sort of person on the left wing. But you know that just Britain really, really changed. She privatized British gas, British nuclear fuels, everything became privatized and floated which caused a huge economic uptick in the country and it was eighties yuppies, it was mobile phones and all that kinda stuff. And that had a massive impact, primarily driven by Reagan's America obviously. But it's interesting. But the central office of information, which was the, essentially the communications arm of the British government started to float all of the public institutions in England completely. And that had just such a massive economic injection into commerce and advertising as a consequence. I mean I remember working on British gas flotation, hundreds and hundreds of millions in the uk it ties into it for sure.

Stew Redwine (14:57):
So we may be discovering something 'cause in the land of plenty, I haven't ever really said this, but sometimes I think like with the Mad Men era, anybody on Madison Avenue that was decently talented and intelligent would've had a hard time screwing that up because from 1945 to the eighties you're riding a rocket ship that the entire world is on its knees. Yeah. You've nuked them into submission, you're the only one still standing. So you advertise all your stuff and you make big ideas about how great it is and it's gonna make everybody happy. 'cause they did this thing on Jack Welch. You know Jack Welch was from the gut when you actually analyze his company's performance against the s and p 500 when he was in charge of it, it

Giles Martin (15:39):
Right on par.

Stew Redwine (15:40):
Yeah. So that's actually my private theory of yet to say on the record is that the Americans with all of the ideas and stuff and like the hierarchy of effects of this idea, you know a hundred years ago is we're gonna get people to think a certain way so that they feel a certain way and then they do what we want 'em to do that then inverted in the sixties. We're gonna get 'em to feel a certain way so they think a certain way. So then they do what we want 'em to do. I personally think it's, if you can get people to do something, you can get 'em to feel good and then you can get 'em to think whatever you want.

Giles Martin (16:07):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (16:07):
Anyway, my point is this, they couldn't have screwed it up but I've never quite thought about the UK being on its knees. Advertising isn't super charged on coke and cash. So you actually have to be more intentional with your ads.

Steven Abraham (16:18):
Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean if you just look at that gap from sort of 19 45, 46, when did we start talking about swinging London? It was in the sixties. So you had a good 16 or 17 years of rebuild. Yep. And we were still on, you know, luncheon vouchers and rationing stamps. Yeah rationing stamps all the way through that period. And so it wasn't until there was, you know, the baby boom in the sixties where there became more wealth and people became more affluent and could begin to suddenly start letting their hair down literally <laugh>.

Stew Redwine (16:46):
I've never quite thought of that before that it's like you've got less inventory and less people that are just throwing money around. So you better be really smart about the sales message you're putting out there.

Giles Martin (16:59):
Less advertising opportunities as well, right? Less inventory the BBC. Yeah. So like there's scarcity all round and so that scarcity is maybe a forcing function of this spur of planning that you're talking about. I mean when it really kicked off what sixties? Mid sixties?

Steven Abraham (17:13):
Yeah. Early seventies.

Giles Martin (17:14):
Just as the industry's starting to sort of gain momentum then somebody comes in and goes, we need to apply some you more brain power.

Steven Abraham (17:20):
David Ogilvy, John Heggerty, those kind of guys who started, you know, we're rewriting advertising history on this podcast. I mean I think the early days of cece's and Charlotte Street in the uk, which was the real sort of explosion for us, the equivalent of Madison Avenue. I think those kind of guys really set in place some sort of benchmarks and barometers of what great advertising was gonna be. And Giles and I were kind of talking about it before, you know, we were still in, well he's in short trousers now, but we were in short trousers when we were, you know, in those sort of days and talking about the banter when a new TV ad we have, because you have to understand in television terms, I know we're shifting from audio to television. We had one commercial TV station, one independent television network, right? That was it. So the ads that appeared on there were reaching massive audiences 'cause it was the only commercial TV station and they were, I'm just gonna be very blase and stoic about this fucking brilliant <laugh>.

Giles Martin (18:14):
And it, so the point is like it's a conversation in the playground 'cause everyone's seen them because the reach is so massive and there's only one station. It's huge. You go to school the next day and you're talking about like, did you see that new Carling Black label commercial, whatever it was And there were some brilliant ones. Yeah. And you know, the creativity is genuinely there. And you know, I think one of the great <laugh> amazing realizations that the planning community has had over the years is like if you haven't got a great idea or a great strategy, if you could at least just be entertaining. Oh you know, you've done nine-tenths of the work. Like that's enough for people

Steven Abraham (18:45):
Gentlemen who just rang me while I was on this. Neil Lucy, our esteemed colleague, I wanna quote him. He often says, you know, you can have the best media plan in the world but if the creative shit doesn't matter, yeah you can have a very mediocre me plan. But if you are creative, nows it, people are gonna remember it. So bringing it back to, well I think the fundamentals are at the end of the day seeing an ear experience and it's making that creative brilliant. But you know, I remember TV commercials from when I was younger and you know, PG tips and all that kind of stuff. You got

Giles Martin (19:10):
Some jingles. Well we were talking a little bit about that beforehand. There's for mash get Smash <laugh>. I, I still remember that 'cause he started singing it when I was maybe last in the country and I just joined in right there and I've not thought of that for probably 40 years. And it just came right back.

Stew Redwine (19:33):
What's the brand?

Giles Martin (19:34):
Our white lemonade? I dunno if they still think

Steven Abraham (19:36):
It's the gentleman get wakes up in the middle of the night and he's groove in and he comes down the stairs and he and he opens up his fridge. Yeah. Middle of the night and he's a secret lemonade drinker and he drinks this pile of pop or whatever. It's

Giles Martin (19:47):
The other thing about the smash audio logo, I just think it's maybe worth a mention. 'cause I remember hearing maybe the creative director or somebody like going to a studio or to a musician's house and saying Look I need this logo. You know, the idea is for mash get smash, something like that. Like, and so the guy sort of was I think thinking I'm gonna play him some chords or play him what this song might look like. And he was like, well you know, I just need four words, you know like, and on the piano with one finger he just went like that and he was like, yeah. And then he started going on and he is like, stop right there. That's all I need. Like do not overcomplicate this <laugh> I do not like, I don't need a whole bunch of, you know, different versions or sounds like he took those four notes, like the simplest possible thing this musician guy could think of. And that became the audio logo. And again it sticks in the mind 40 years later.

Stew Redwine (20:35):
How's it going king guys? Can you sing it again for me?

Giles Martin (20:38):
Mash get smash, you know it right?

Stew Redwine (20:41):
Oh yeah.

Giles Martin (20:42):
I'm just not gonna, he's not gonna sing it 'cause he's got more dignity than me.

Announcer 1 (20:45):
That's the way we do things in this country quietly with dignity.

Steven Abraham (20:48):
Well the one that always sticks out to me, what you couldn't get away with the commercials that they used to do in the seventies in England now you'd be put in jail. I mean, you know, animal cruelty and stuff like

Stew Redwine (20:58):
That. Oh I'm

Steven Abraham (20:59):
Sure the PG tips was uh, tea that Giles and I drink. You know, they would dress up chimpanzees and have them do sort of human type stuff. Yeah, sure. <laugh> and it was always, you know, very, very comedic. Yeah. These are very, very memorable commercials. And the thing is, there was such limited inventory on television. Yeah. And radio. We could only have seven minutes of advertising an

Stew Redwine (21:20):
Hour. So that's what I've never connected before to this idea of strategy is that that forces you to think. It just is like a market force where you go into an environment where everything is growing like this for 30 years. Mm-hmm

Giles Martin (21:33):
<affirmative> and there's as much advertising space as you want.

Stew Redwine (21:36):
You can just blast just go like Yeah.

Steven Abraham (21:39):
And also the audio, the radio and television structure in the UK was regionalized. So from a commercial perspective, if you wanted to get national reach you literally had to buy networks together

Stew Redwine (21:51):
And you couldn't get Na there wasn't a national

Steven Abraham (21:53):
No London. London was actually split into two networks. And that sounds weird, but it was split into two networks across the week. So you would have Tham television from, and this was also for radio as well. It was from Monday to Friday, thas television. And then the weekend was called London Weekend Television. And on Friday night at five 30 you'd literally saying now we're gonna pass over to our colleagues. It's uh London LWT. Right? And the logo would change. It was peculiar and it was very strange. So to build national reach, both from an audio perspective and a TV perspective, you had to know the individual component parts of the country. Oh this

Stew Redwine (22:25):
Is amazing. I didn't know we'd go on such a journey. Okay, so theorem practicum. So let's bring this into the real world. According to Magellan ai Unilever was one of the top podcast ad spenders in May, 2025, legacy CPG brand, tons of sub-brand Serious spend. But did it work did they think before they bought? We're going to review four of their recent podcast ads and we're going to run them through the audio lytics lens and hear what Steven and Giles have to say as well before we move on. Let's zoom out for a second. Because Unilever isn't just another advertiser. They're a global giant market cap. Over 120 billion, billion portfolio, 400 plus brands in 190 countries. And here's the kicker, unlike many US conglomerates, Unilever does most of its advertising in-house. They're what's called a holding company that holds the work. That means they own the brands and manage much of the strategy and creative internally or through bespoke agency relationships. Why does that matter? Because it means the same people who fund the media are often the ones driving the brief and when it's done right, that can create real cohesion between spend and strategy. But when it's not, it's just money in noise out. So as we grade these ads today, we're not just critiquing individual executions, we're looking at what happens when one of the biggest advertisers in the world tries to make audio work. Steven Giles, how rare is it to see a company of this size actually think through their podcast creative?

Steven Abraham (23:56):
I think it's pretty rare. Yeah. To be

Stew Redwine (23:58):
Honest, what makes it rare?

Steven Abraham (23:59):
Well look, I mean when you're Unilever sized, the temptation is just to spend your way to relevance, right? Because that's just how they're gonna operate as a business. But they seem to genuinely care about keeping strategy connected to execution. So I think it's quite rare a lot of companies don't necessarily do that. They just throw money at it 'cause they've got a lot fun. Cooper, I think you can see it when a brief, you know, really does sort of shine through and actually survives the process without being diluted to a big bowl of generic sort of brand soup. And I think Unilever has managed to do that with some of these distinct brands, especially Dove. So I think they're a rare beast. I mean you can see I'm genuinely steering trying to steer their business away from them using it in the holding company and come to us. But no, I think they've actually nailed it. My wife used to work on Unilever business so maybe that's the reason.

Stew Redwine (24:41):
Well that, you know, that becomes with some weight that audio lytic sub component has quite a bit of weight to it. Which one? Uh, spouse <laugh>.

Steven Abraham (24:49):
Yeah, I mean I mean the stakes are high, right? Because at that scale any sloppy thinking's gonna get broadcast to millions because they're just known by millions. So they've gotta get it right and you can't, you can't polish an idea free dirt <laugh>. It's gotta be good. You know, no matter how big your budget, if you haven't got that creative nugget then and they've had the, the collective wisdom over many, many years of working with lots of agencies and they've mined that and brought it in house and now hopefully connected the dots. I mean I'm doing a great job of taking away work for agencies but it's actually true in this, in the instance of Unilever. I think they're a rare beast that does it well.

Giles Martin (25:24):
Well I'm keen to hear their ads now.

Steven Abraham (25:25):
Yeah,

Stew Redwine (25:26):
Let's take a listen. These is from Magellan's top spenders for May, 2025. You can get a free demo of Magellan at Magellan do AI slash a infinitum. But here we go. We're jumping right in. This first one is for degree on club Shehe.

Announcer 2 (25:44):
So we all made mistakes, right? But on it up to them it's the right thing to do. But we all know degree cool rush is deodorant. Well last year they changed the formula and it did not go over well with the fans degree whole thing. It turns up sweat and auto protection where you turn up the effort and good thing it does 'cause cool Rush fans really turned up the effort to bring back the OG formula. One guy even started an oil out petition and degree. Listen, they admit it, they effed up and are bringing back the OG cool rush sent back and it's exactly how you remember it. Cool, crisp and fresh. It's back at Walmart, target and other stores for under $4. There's a reason why it's been the number one men's anti-man for the last decade. It's the same reason why people are not happy when the recipe was changed. So listen, if you've never tried it might be a good time to try see what the fuss is about, head to your local Walmart or Target and try the OG degree. Cool rush for yourself. The game is

Steven Abraham (26:35):
Afoot. I like the lo-fi aspect of it actually.

Stew Redwine (26:39):
Okay. It's lo-fi.

Steven Abraham (26:40):
Yeah I think the insight there is been recorded and structured based on the guy's voice. He's talking to a very specific audience. It's a relatively low cost purchase product.

Giles Martin (26:49):
Yeah.

Steven Abraham (26:50):
And he's using vernacular that's very in tune with the audience that he's talking to. So I think they've taken a really interesting insight there and applied it into audio advertising, which is not always easy to do.

Giles Martin (27:01):
What about the sort of cutaway at the end to the CTA like that was 'cause that's maybe the most low-fi part of the whole thing.

Stew Redwine (27:08):
Had to local Walmart at Target and try the OG degree.

Giles Martin (27:11):
You

Steven Abraham (27:11):
Like that too? Oh I did actually because it was so, it was the juxtaposition of something that's usually really slick. Yeah, actually it was very low-fi which kind of resonated.

Stew Redwine (27:20):
You ready to give it a score on a scale of one to 10, 10 being the most persuasive.

Steven Abraham (27:24):
Oh my hard score on this kind of stuff. But I'd say it's a probably a good seven and a

Stew Redwine (27:27):
Half, half points. We're doing half points today guys. Okay, that's okay. Seven and a half for Steve.

Giles Martin (27:33):
I was just gonna say, you know that obviously like that part at the end like the CDA cutaway is quite noticeable. I mean it may be less noticeable for your average listener possibly. So like take this with a pinch of salt but like my first reaction is, you know, it's unprofessional and it's not smooth and you know for a brand this big like you would not have that expectation. But you know, part of I think what you know all the clever strategists have learned over the years is you know, the value of distinctiveness and like having some type of cut through and delight and surprise. Yeah I mean this doesn't delight so much but it does surprise And you know there's some, you maybe get some cut through from some un unusual sort of ending like that that could add some value to that ad maybe somewhat. Yeah. Sort of ironically. But

Steven Abraham (28:17):
Yeah it's interesting isn't

Stew Redwine (28:18):
It. Let me ask you this, two questions Giles. Yes. Two, what do you give it on a scale of one to 10?

Giles Martin (28:24):
Six.

Stew Redwine (28:25):
Okay.

Giles Martin (28:25):
But I'm not target audience I don't think.

Stew Redwine (28:27):
Okay. Listen, neither of you talked about the substance of the message, which I'm curious what you think of that one. Do you remember what he said?

Giles Martin (28:34):
The authenticity was very interesting.

Stew Redwine (28:36):
What did he say?

Giles Martin (28:37):
He said we screwed up.

Stew Redwine (28:39):
Right.

Giles Martin (28:39):
And that's nice to hear. That's refreshing to hear I think from any corporation. Um, it resonates I think with people. At least it resonates with me.

Steven Abraham (28:45):
Yeah, I mean I think he actually said we effed up so you know, so that, you know, I remembered it. So yeah, I mean that's that degree of honesty always cuts through I think.

Stew Redwine (28:52):
Yeah, that

Steven Abraham (28:53):
They had their formula and they changed it back. Mm-hmm

Stew Redwine (28:55):
<affirmative> Okay. All right. I just wanted to see if you remember. 'cause sometimes on the show it's in, well

Steven Abraham (28:58):
The substance did change. Literally

Stew Redwine (29:00):
What's crazy is we'll do this and like it'll be about as long as it took both of you to answer and then it's like, do you remember what it was about? And the people are like, uh, because a lot of the ads are so,

Giles Martin (29:11):
But this had a very, this

Stew Redwine (29:12):
Is interesting. I think if they hadn't said that it would be forgettable very. I think so.

Giles Martin (29:17):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (29:18):
Possibly.

Steven Abraham (29:19):
But they didn't. They said it.

Giles Martin (29:20):
I liked what he said at the end where he is like now could be a good time to try it, see what all the fuss is about.

Steven Abraham (29:25):
Yeah.

Giles Martin (29:25):
And that felt like quite a natural way to kind of link it in. Introduce some ski I've introduced like a reason to. Yeah, it felt quite natural and like okay there is a bit of fuss and okay maybe.

Stew Redwine (29:36):
All right, so we started, and just so you know, audio lytics came out at a 77. Here's the one Liquid IV on growth mindset psychology.

Announcer 1 (29:46):
The growth mindset is sponsored by Liquid IV This summer I am planning a two week bike trip and one thing very worth packing is Liquid iv. Their sugar free solution delivers smart hydration. Ideal for days when you travel or do sports or if you simply need to concentrate 'cause it's more hydrating than water. It's also great for recovery and can keep you hydrated at night without having to drink a ton of water and then get up to pee all night. Which if you are anything like me is a plus. They uh, also have lots of fancy flavors. White, peach, lemon and lime, arctic raspberry just for summer. And these provide an optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients. All sugar-free with no artificial sweeteners, no GMO. It's vegan, gluten-free, dairy-free. And so no matter what summer brings you can tear, pour and live more. If you go to liquid iv.com, you can get 20% off your first order with code growth at checkout as 20% off first order with code growth@liquidiv.com. Oh sorry, let me, let me wake up.

Giles Martin (30:58):
<laugh>. I love

Steven Abraham (30:59):
It when an Australian

Giles Martin (31:00):
Doesn't ad <laugh>. I don't think I could hear anything other than the music.

Stew Redwine (31:04):
What <laugh>.

Giles Martin (31:05):
I know you ask me what the F is about. I just say where am

Stew Redwine (31:08):
I? You were as keyed in on that soundtracks

Giles Martin (31:11):
Like's this smooth jazz or slow jazz or easy listening. What is it doing here? But maybe it helped to create some cut through. Maybe it helped to create some interest. I don't know. This is still an unusual thing, right?

Steven Abraham (31:23):
Yes. It's felt very meandering to me. It felt that it wasn't, it was a little bit all over the place. I mean, you know, I mean obviously we picked up straight Outta the way the fact that it was a British accent but it was still not necessarily delivered with the, I dunno.

Stew Redwine (31:36):
Okay. All right.

Steven Abraham (31:37):
Hey what do you give it? Three and a half. Oh didn't work for me. And I need that product. <laugh>.

Stew Redwine (31:43):
<laugh>. Yeah. That's even worse.

Giles Martin (31:45):
Yeah, that's true. You know, I could use a product but again it's like I felt like I barely didn't convince me. I barely could sort of take in the messaging but I think yeah, I was just very distracted by the music. I felt like the call to action was good.

Steven Abraham (31:57):
The music sort of cut off at the end. It almost like felt Oh the tapes run out there. Yeah. Giles,

Stew Redwine (32:02):
What did you give it? What was your score?

Giles Martin (32:03):
Get another six.

Stew Redwine (32:04):
Six. Another six. Yeah. Okay, well let's just plow ahead here. Let's get the next two done and then we'll have a conversation about Unilever in general. This one's for Ollie on Fox News Sunday.

Speaker 7 (32:16):
PMS pregnancy. Menopause. Being a woman is a lot. Ollie supports you and yours with expert solutions for every age and life stage. They just launched two new products exclusively at Walmart. Period. Hero combats, flow, mood swings and more during PMS and balance. Pero to support hormonal balance, mood and metabolism during perimenopause. Grab yours@ollie.com. Ol, these statements have not been by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

Stew Redwine (32:45):
Okay. Giles, let's start with you. We've been starting with Steve. Is that Ali?

Giles Martin (32:49):
That's an audio logo. Is it?

Stew Redwine (32:51):
Sounds like it is to me. I don't think I've heard it before but it sounded very much like a group of people like gang vocals going Hi Right All together.

Giles Martin (32:59):
Yeah. I mean as you know, we're such big advocates of audio logos and I guess that could work. It just felt a bit confusing. Like is it part of the read? Is it sort of part of the copy? Is it somebody talking like Oh no, it's sort of crowd of voices. Like I don't know. To me I love the use of an audio logo but I guess I'm just not familiar with that one. Maybe

Stew Redwine (33:15):
So. No, I think you're right. I think you're on the money. What I've come to land on with that is like the best ones Netflix, Intel Inside, which is dated now NBC all were very purposely designed. This feels to me like I could probably see the brief behind it. Like I don't know if you guys have ever heard of the book The Painted Word, but this guy got to this conclusion of like pretty soon painters won't even paint. They'll just put their artist statement on the wall <laugh>. And that's kinda what this feels like to me. Like I bet it's got a brilliant, or maybe not brilliant, but a well worded document behind why that makes so much sense. But this is one where I think it's a miss, right? It just, it's not landing.

Giles Martin (34:00):
Yeah. I mean I just feel like a Sonic logo like that it needs to have that crispness, that clarity like it's supposed to play the audio, you know, equivalent of like that visual stimulus that is so instantly identifiable. It's so distinctive. Like that's the whole point of it. And so if it doesn't have that distinctiveness where it just sounds like another voice kind of coming out the background of like a couple of people.

Stew Redwine (34:19):
Well and I just thought like Ollie like maybe for kids vitamins.

Steven Abraham (34:23):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I felt again, to use the word juxtaposed what the product was in a way way. But I thought the voice was right and motivating and positive and then suddenly this weird sort of,

Giles Martin (34:33):
Maybe it could work better at the very end. You know, it has a bit of distance from the regular copy but sort of just inserting it into the sort of flow of the script there felt a bit strange to me.

Stew Redwine (34:42):
What do you guys score that ad?

Giles Martin (34:44):
I mean it just felt like a very average ad to me. Like friendly tone, you know, sort of upbeat like hey you know, this is great product but sort of pretty unremarkable. So maybe a seven.

Stew Redwine (34:55):
It's higher than the other two.

Giles Martin (34:57):
I know it is. Yeah.

Stew Redwine (34:58):
Okay. Steve round about six I think.

Giles Martin (35:01):
Okay.

Stew Redwine (35:01):
Audioly. 'cause it is 66%.

Giles Martin (35:04):
Hmm.

Stew Redwine (35:04):
So we're right in there. Now what's weird is the last one which you guys gave with 3.5. Ooh I did. And a 6 0 6. Yeah. Audio looks. Gave that an 84% guys.

Giles Martin (35:16):
Well look, call to action was good. The offer was good. Like they repeated the website name again at the very end.

Stew Redwine (35:21):
It had a lot of information in it. Well

Steven Abraham (35:23):
I think all the analytics was just seduced by the British accent.

Giles Martin (35:26):
Yeah, it could be it. Do you get extra points for British? I think you probably should.

Stew Redwine (35:30):
I think you do. You see for us

Giles Martin (35:31):
It's not impressive. Second.

Stew Redwine (35:33):
Yeah. 'cause you're like, that's my move.

Giles Martin (35:34):
That's

Steven Abraham (35:34):
My

Stew Redwine (35:35):
Move. <laugh>. All right, let's go to the next one.

Steven Abraham (35:37):
Interesting that it measured it that way. Yeah.

Stew Redwine (35:39):
Yeah. Well I think that's the, it was

Steven Abraham (35:41):
Long.

Stew Redwine (35:42):
It was long. And you know, the more you tell, the more you sell. And I think there's also, there's this, and I've talked about this, there's, you know, making the most planful creative inspired work is very rewarding and it's awesome. There also is like being very direct, being very clear, being information driven works when looking at certain metrics. And the one I like to talk about is ZipRecruiter's needle in a haystack, which when we did the episode a couple episodes back with Wayne Brady, we had him turn it into a musical member. Which is what you have a needle in a haystack. I'm a needle in a haystack. You a needle in a haystack. So much fun. We're not going there today. This ad's been running for a decade. ZipRecruiter's still running it. Trying to find the right hire is like trying to find a needle in the haystack, you know, and you listen to it and anybody that would rate it would go, ugh, audio lytics, you can guess it scores very well. So there's that dichotomy that's always at work and it's like, I don't wanna use it to justify making lame work, but I also don't want to cover my like ignore that. Something like that does work. Like how do you guys rationalize that

Steven Abraham (36:42):
They're using it to make sure the service is used. So as long as it's getting, I mean they're making creative 'cause they know it works in that sense. Clearly it's working. So they're not, it's not broken. It's doing what it needs to do. It's obviously driving their business. Sometimes I think we can get a little bit lost in just wanting to make great creative. 'cause it's great creative.

Stew Redwine (36:59):
That's what I'm getting.

Steven Abraham (36:59):
Yes. Yeah. And I think, you know, if it's proving it's worth and it still hasn't been worn out yet and it's delivering on the imperative of the brand, then it's justified to be put into the marketplace.

Giles Martin (37:09):
Yeah, I mean audio lytics is designed to generate creative that sells and what sells isn't always, you know, necessarily a script that is pretty, or you know, regarded as Steve said, as great creative. And I think one of the things that is perhaps interesting about the history of advertising, it certainly felt like there was a time where maybe more in the nineties or early two thousands that it sort of lost a bit of lost sight of sort of, you know, that core goal of selling. Yeah. And then we came a bit more, is the creative great, you know, and are we going on a great shoot and are we going to come and you know, are we getting some awards? Right? But the bottom line is, and like Ogilvy came way back into fashion and people say like we sell or else because that's ultimately what advertising is supposed to do. So you know, audio lytics keeps us honest in that way, but it's not necessarily a formula for creating ads that people are necessarily gonna listen to and go, oh that's a great ad. I'm gonna give that a nine outta 10.

Steven Abraham (38:03):
Well I think it's also interesting, I read a recent article that talked about the number of can awards that have been given to ads that when you actually distilled them down to did they deliver on the client's needs in terms of sales? They didn't but it was just a beautiful piece of art. So it got awarded and yet there's thousands of ads made each year that are delivering on their client's needs yet don't get considered. So it's interesting. So maybe there should be award for, well this ad worked because it managed to sell against this KPI

Stew Redwine (38:28):
And the Gold Lion goes to ZipRecruiter. Well

Steven Abraham (38:30):
You know, it's true. I mean you look, we understand that some awards are given out there for creative excellence and that's fine. But creative excellence without distilling it down to an actual bottom line number that a client wants to deliver is just a vanity project, isn't it?

Stew Redwine (38:42):
It can be. I think it's the, the older I get things can be simultaneously true. Two

Steven Abraham (38:48):
Truths.

Stew Redwine (38:49):
Yeah. Yep. Alright, let's listen to the next one. The last one. This is from Dove MenCare games with names.

Announcer 3 (38:59):
When you're comfortable with the uncomfortable, you're ready for just about anything that comes your way. Especially stress, sweat and dove men plus care antiperspirants. Make sure you stay comfortable

Announcer 4 (39:09):
Because we've all had those cringe moments. The ones that make you break into stress, sweat. Like when you're delivering a best man's speech and someone spills a drink on your notes. When you're standing over a 10 foot putt with bragging rights on the line. Or when the boss reschedules a performance review for right now,

Announcer 3 (39:27):
All you can do is turn on the charm and wing the speech, breathe deep and drain the putt and march into that review like the rockstar that you are. As for stress, sweat,

Announcer 4 (39:37):
Leave that up to dove. Men plus care when emotions are running high and stress is mounting Dove. Men plus care antiperspirants help tackle stress, sweat, and odor causing bacteria all while adding Dove skincare agents that help to keep your underarms feeling fresh,

Announcer 3 (39:54):
Get comfortable with uncomfortable, fight back against stress, sweat with Dove men plus care antiperspirants available at Walmart, target and Amazon.

Giles Martin (40:06):
I personally, this could be a hot take. It's totally wrong Phil. That was a horrifically bad ad. Mm-hmm

Giles Martin (40:11):
<affirmative>

Giles Martin (40:11):
They started off by talking about like you are uncomfortable or being uncomfortable. It's like why are you talking to me about that? And then you know, it's just for me, stress sweat is not, I've always called it just sweat. Yeah. It's just sweat. It's like it's, to me that's not really a concept that I have. So to me it's jarring like why are they talking about that? And then they just kept saying stress, stress, stress, stress, stress. And like if you think about the mind as just a associative matching machine, which it really is. Like you're just hearing dove and stress dove and stress dove and stress like it could work possibly. But there's a lot of negatives about that ad.

Stew Redwine (40:45):
You know what I thought was they started like we've all been there and then they talk about golfing and having a performance review. And to me I was like, I do happen to belong in the group that I think they're talking to. College educated knowledge worker. That's a subset of every man who's got an armpit. <laugh>. Yeah. So you just like sliced your audience down to guys that golf and do have white collar jobs.

Giles Martin (41:09):
That really struck me as well.

Stew Redwine (41:10):
Yeah. I'm like you just, any other guy out there swinging a hammer

Steven Abraham (41:15):
Goes, it's not even gonna, and interestingly enough, if we think about the first ad that we listened to, it was also about a deodorant. They managed to speak to a target audience without alienating their audience. They just used cues of vernacular and tone of voice and accent as an African American. But it was, you know what I mean? It was Yes. More real. Yeah.

Stew Redwine (41:34):
He was just being himself. This is like, let me connect, like this is one of the, I've talked about this before. It's like, this to me sounds like a brief for an ad. Like, hey guys, we want to talk about stress sweat. We're not, those aren't words we're gonna use in the ad, but what we mean by that is like, you know when you're about to do some sort of athletic event and you're worried about the outcome or you're going into a meeting and you start to feel uncomfortable, those are some of the images. I don't want you to use any of that, but that's like to help guide you. We really wanna push the fact that Dove's now available with this new formula and make it generally, you know, we really wanna make sure all men, anybody with an armpit feels like they could, that's a man could use this. Where this to me is like this like feels like what you would use to get to a good ad.

Giles Martin (42:15):
Yeah, maybe. I mean it feels like more like a brief than a fight finished copy.

Stew Redwine (42:19):
You get what I'm saying? Yeah.

Giles Martin (42:20):
I dunno. Just to me it feels like a bad brief then <laugh> <laugh>, we all know what happens with them. That's too good. So what do you guys give them? I think I'd be comfortable giving this a three Maybe lower hub. About a hub? About a

Stew Redwine (42:33):
Steve?

Steven Abraham (42:33):
Yeah, probably about four. Okay. Here's what's interesting. Audio Lytics gave it to 10 95, 60.

Stew Redwine (42:41):
So the only one that was like, if we chart these together it it happened. What happens most of the time? 'cause I do believe that audio lytics is like we hold these truths to be self-evident. Like this is the way you persuade a person. Particularly if you're having to walk up to a doorbell, ring the doorbell and get 'em to buy knives. Right now you'd wanna hit all these points as hard as you could. Yeah,

(42:59):
Okay fine. A priority That's what's in it. Every once in a while there's a little bit of dissonance. So Liquid IV is the only one where there was a little bit of dissonance, but the rest of 'em we charted right along where audio Lytics said Liquid IV was number one. Steve and Giles did not. But then we all agreed the first degree ad had the highest score, then Ollie and then this Dove MenCare had the worst. And I think it's understandable that's the breakdown. So when you listen to all these, you know what's behind it, Unilever a hundred and however many billion dollars and all the teams and all the people involved, what do you as professionals in this channel in particular, what do you hear and what are your recommendations for the chief audio officers that are listening?

Giles Martin (43:39):
I mean, I dunno about recommendations, but the first thought that comes to mind for me thinking about, you know, dove and them taking it in house and you know, us trying to sort of focus on audio as a channel. I mean to me these all sort of smack of audio being an afterthought, which is something we talk about a lot. I

Steven Abraham (43:55):
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Giles Martin (43:57):
And it's such a large piece of people's day and such a big amount of media time and yet it just does not get the love and attention and consideration as a channel that it deserves. And you see that media budget, I think you also see that in the briefs that, you know we've talked about here, but speculatively, but also, you know, these executions like I feel they're okay. I mean, but it just feels like, yeah there's not a lot of passion put into it.

Steven Abraham (44:20):
Yeah, they've been spending a lot of time on television. They've been spending a lot of time on their digital and then, oh, gotta do an audio ad as well. You got 15 minutes, knock something up. Maybe that's a lot of truth in that.

Stew Redwine (44:30):
I will say if I'm looking at this right, games with names was Host Red Growth Mindset was Host Red, the Liquid IV was host Red Degree was Host Red. So I do wanna say, 'cause what I've been noticing happen over time is more and more of 'em are just produced spots, which is basically what the Ollie spot sounded like. A radio spot ported over to podcast. I do have to say it's interesting they're doing Host Red Creative still. I acknowledge that and

Steven Abraham (44:52):
Respect that. Yeah. But again they, it sounds like they just sent a shopping list of things to the guys. Yeah, there wasn't about personalization, wasn't it? Just shoehorn this into the 60 seconds or whatever you've got, shoehorn it in, make sure you get this point, get those beats. It's like why don't you tell us about a time you was sweating or that you might need this or when you feel stressful social issue. Right.

Giles Martin (45:11):
It feels like a pretty disconnected podcasting approach. 'cause I thank you for calling that out about the host reads, like three out those four ads are host reads. That's a very important relevant point. Yeah. And yet it feels like the hosts, you know, are just reading scripts for the most part. Like the Liquid IV one. Okay. Maybe it hit the best copy points in terms of audio alytics. But I mean it's just a guy reading through the talking points, maybe doing a little bit of like, oh I travel a lot and I use this, you know, 'cause I don't wanna get up at night. But like it felt like they could get a lot more out of these three.

Stew Redwine (45:41):
Well he did back it with that easy listening jazz that

Steven Abraham (45:45):
Now explains a lot. That just confused it. Jesus outta me. That's all you were hearing. No, but you can hear the perspective I'm coming at. If it had said these are four host reads that Unilever had done, I would give cut them a little bit more sort of slack because you know, at the end of the day it's down to a host. Clearly it was not onboarded Well in a couple of

Stew Redwine (46:02):
Instances, your final thoughts for the chief audio officers, those who are responsible to make their dollars work in audio, is there anything they could learn from today's ads or wisdom you would give them in taking a planful approach to audio

Steven Abraham (46:15):
To follow on From what Charles said before, the onboarding is so, so important. Really ma you know, making sure the host understands what it is they're gonna be talking about and to give it that sort of importance and intimacy the host read we know can have 'cause it's either excellent or it's flat. Right? <laugh>. So that's an important point.

Giles Martin (46:32):
Yeah, I dunno. I mean, I do feel like I just said that the host reads that doesn't feel like they're squeezing that much juice out of them. And they probably could get more if you could paying, you know, for a host read, like maybe you can get a little bit more out of that. But generally, I mean, I don't know, we talk a lot about Theater of the Mind at Oxford Road and you know, there's a lot of, there's a way to tell stories in audio and sort of bring a listener sort of, you know, into a situation or into a narrative or you know, to lead them in in some way and try and involve them in the product or somebody's story or you know, the story of the company even if it has to be that. But like I just feel there's so much more scope for, you know, using audio to tell stories and get people really engaged and you know, connect with them, you know, in more of those subconscious ways. And you know, we've talked about how audio alytics is a system that appeals, you know, primarily to sort of the rational, very logical approach to doing it. But there's also this huge subconscious component where people are persuaded in all those ways that they're not even aware of. Like, do I relate to the guy who plays golf or who's giving a wedding speech or do I resonate with his music? Or you know, all those other ways. And I feel like audio can do a really good job of creating those uh, resonances.

Stew Redwine (47:39):
I think you're right 'cause it is like the subconscious response and dimensional listening, like storytelling, getting people to enter into the image and just like talk about the Liquid IV packaging or the guys pouring it into his drink on the table right there.

Steven Abraham (47:52):
It's as easy as just sound like you care. <laugh>.

Stew Redwine (47:56):
Thank you. Okay. Actually I think that's a great note to end on. C aos that are listening. Make sure your ads that the hosts reading 'em sound like they care. I think taking a step back though, anyone hearing it, it sounds like you care, sounds like you care about what you're putting out there into audio taking a planful approach. We learned something new. None of us knew about advertising history in the United Kingdom. I want to thank you guys both so much for being on the show. This was a masterclass and how to think before you hit record. Where can people follow your work and connect?

Giles Martin (48:27):
Well you know, I do have a podcast and my running joke about my podcast is that I have one listener and I address that listener in the podcast in the singular. So it would spoil my joke if more people listen to it. So I dunno if I want people to check that out. It's called Rads for Peace by the way. And I also have a website giles martin.com, where I occasionally pontificate on philosophical, psychological and spiritual topics. So you can follow me there and if you're interested in my professional life, you can follow me on LinkedIn, but I never post anything there. I'm not following that <laugh> LinkedIn <laugh>. Bob, I was hoping we could end with some like English silly expressions or something.

Stew Redwine (49:04):
Yeah, why don't we Rapid fire. Go ahead. English phrase for English phrase.

Giles Martin (49:09):
Come on governor. I haven't actually got any plans. So, uh, what was it? Um,

Stew Redwine (49:14):
Figures of speech that your grandmothers used.

Steven Abraham (49:16):
This is pretty boring, but whenever anything of any minor drama or major drama happen in my house would just be, let's put the kettle on and talk about it. <laugh>, that was it.

Giles Martin (49:27):
There's a book called the Anglo Files and it's by an American, a woman from New York I think who moved in with a husband. They moved to the UK and it's about her acclimatizing to UK culture and at the start, and it's a really good book by the way, but the start that she's got a list of 10 things about how I know I've sort of become British or got used to, you know, being in England and you know, stuff like, well when the World Cup's on, like I always cheer madly for England even though I know they're gonna lose whatever. And then at the end it's like number 10 is like no matter what happens, you know there's a tube strike, traffic jams, bad day at work, you're fired. The nuclear war breaks out. You know, when I get home just put the kettle on. Yeah, have a cup of tea.

Steven Abraham (50:09):
Oh, and just to finish up on that, my grandmother always used to say when she'd made something emphatic, you see and put that in your pipe and smoke it. <laugh> in some sort of middle earthy kind of way stuff. Northern Woman, you know,

Stew Redwine (50:21):
That's a wrap on another episode of Ad Infinitum. A long time coming so grateful that Steve and Abraham and Giles were able to join and put a little English on it. The origin of that phrase is when growing up I played ping pong with my friend John Miles and when we would put spin on a ball. Oh right. That would be put a little English on

Giles Martin (50:39):
It. Any particular reason?

Stew Redwine (50:40):
I don't know. John said it and he would say it with a bad accent. He go put a little Lish and you'd go, boom. And that's how you know you put some spin on the ball.

Steven Abraham (50:48):
Nice.

Stew Redwine (50:49):
And I used to think you guys were all spin.

Giles Martin (50:52):
Oh right.

Stew Redwine (50:52):
But you're all, there's substance. I do think the accent comes with some, you know, whatever, there's the allure of the accent. But what's been revelatory over the last seven years, five years of working with you is learning to stop and think and plan and ask those questions. Like even today we experienced it making the episode and it gets to better work. It's just, I'm reminded of the Martin Luther King Jr. Speech, which is nothing pains some men so much as to think and it's like a physical workout to be like, have I thought this through?

Steven Abraham (51:19):
It's like ar.

Stew Redwine (51:20):
And it's like, okay, stop and think. Let's ask the questions. And that's how we get to the good work.

Steven Abraham (51:25):
There's a balance, right? You can overthink stuff as well, but I think it's like getting that nice sort of healthy balance between intuition, thought, rational logic and you know, a little bit of bravery.

Stew Redwine (51:36):
Well hopefully we can meet in the middle. I know Steve's come out for my annual paintball birthday Bash Giles, and we'll have to have you come out and it won't be time to think.

Giles Martin (51:45):
Yeah. And that's the beauty of it, <laugh>.

Stew Redwine (51:47):
All right. Thank you for listening to Add Infinitum. Thank you guys for coming on the show and check out the top spenders and get a free demo at magellan.ai/add infinitum. And until next time, keep calm, carry on and have fun making the ads work.