Stew Redwine (00:00):
This is Ad Infinitum.

(00:18):
Ad Infinitum is the award-winning podcast solely focused on audio ads, the creatives who make them and or the latest thinking that informs them how the space is evolving. And my favorite part, a roundup of recent audio ads with Analysis by yours truly, Stu Redwine and each episode's guest. This is season three, episode 10 of ad infinitum titled Shelby From the Future. Today we bring on someone who has helped shape not just my thinking, but the very creative strategy DNA of Oxford Road, Shelby Hayden. Craig is one of the most original and clearest thinkers I know. Welcome to the show Shelby. Thanks Dan. It's a pleasure to be here with you in person once I know this is amazing. This has been a long time coming and the first time we've met in person after five years of working together and I was thinking of doing it on video, but as you can see listeners, you cannot see my right tooth. My front right tooth is like chipped. What do I look like? What does it look like? Shelby? One for Christmases, my two front teeth.

(01:19):
Oh, it looked like you tripped and hit a curb with your face. <laugh>. <laugh> a long time ago. It kind of did and it finally broke apart. Again, I just PSA for the listeners, don't try to open things in the kitchen with your teeth. This episode title Shelby from the Future is tied to a couple of things. One, you Shelby live and work in Sydney, Australia. So you're always ahead of us and we make a big to-do outta that on calls and Zoom calls and it helps in getting the work done. I mean, so it's like, it's kind of fun. It's nice packaging. It's like he's in the future. What are the stock tips? But then it's also like you actually are in the future so we can send you stuff at the end of our day and then you're working overnight, which is your day and it is incredibly handy. And also getting that jump on the work week.

Shelby Craig (02:03):
Yeah, I'm usually working on your Sunday. My Monday.

Stew Redwine (02:06):
Exactly.

Shelby Craig (02:07):
But yeah, it's good working in the future. There's that <laugh>. What's that quote you don't need to worry about today? Because it's already tomorrow in Australia <laugh>. And I think that's why you guys don't have to worry sometimes 'cause I'm always on it tomorrow.

Stew Redwine (02:17):
Think about that. What you just said is really actually a, there's a whole lot to that. Don't worry about today because it's already tomorrow in Australia. Like on the planet. It is two days at the same time. Yep. Just it starts to really mess with our perception of kind of everything. What day did a thing happen? There's a lot of

Shelby Craig (02:34):
Confusion around my birthday usually <laugh>.

Stew Redwine (02:38):
Well 'cause your family's like here.

Shelby Craig (02:39):
Yeah. I get, I wake up and get nothing and then like it's not your birthday yet, it's tomorrow. Like yeah you are like well did it.

Stew Redwine (02:46):
I'm here though. I always think of that though. I think of like just, you know, we're on this planet. It's like we zoom out. Like my biggest hope. Somebody asked me like what's your biggest hope for the future is that mankind becomes interstellar. Well we used to look up in the sky and wonder like that is my hope is that we expand across the entire universe And that's so much what you do. It's like zooming out, like zooming out. If you really zoom out, it's always two days on the earth.

Shelby Craig (03:08):
Yeah,

Stew Redwine (03:08):
That's actually the truth.

Shelby Craig (03:09):
Yeah, it's true.

Stew Redwine (03:10):
Okay.

Shelby Craig (03:11):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (03:11):
All right. Well that's interesting.

Shelby Craig (03:12):
It's not just one,

Stew Redwine (03:13):
Right?

Shelby Craig (03:13):
Okay. It's an interesting insight

Stew Redwine (03:15):
Isn't it? And that's what we do like all the time. So the other thing is you're on the cutting edge. You're ahead of everyone else on the project and what I really respect is that you help pull people up to a higher way of thinking. I know you have for me. And you do it in a very humble, you do two things. So one, you are very humble and you mention the tools and you exhibit the right way, like a judo master. Like you're showing it. But you also are firm. Like you are still able to be firm in like not immediately giving up on your position or like, it's almost like an akido thing, that idea of like redirection. But it's because you are Shelby from the future, you've been to the higher ground. I really do believe that you do think of it on a higher level. And so you can gracefully and artfully help lead people there.

Shelby Craig (04:02):
Yeah. And I think there are two important characteristics of creatives and strategists and people that do the kind of work we do. I think you have to stay humble, which is just another way to stay stupid really at the end of the day. Like you have to stay curious if you want to call it that. But like you can't assume you know everything as a creative person or a strategic person. 'cause what is there to learn if you think that

Stew Redwine (04:24):
There's a great quote, I just went through this whole thing studying a keto and I can't remember the guy that said it right off hand, but it's, you have to give up your attachment to being right.

Shelby Craig (04:32):
Yeah, absolutely. So there's that, but it's kind of on, they're on opposite ends, right? You have to be humble and stupid and willing to learn. But on the other end you have to be confident in what you're doing because everyone's looking at you for the answer. And if you're not confident in it, if you back down quickly, it's gonna fall down. So you have to stand up for thinking or the work or whatever it is. If you're not standing up for it, it's gonna die. So you gotta be that person that you know has that confidence. And that's kinda like where the artist is. You know, I think if you look at artists as well, they're always curious, but at the same time they believe deeply in what they're doing and you kinda have to, you know, it takes a lot to pull 'em out of that.

Stew Redwine (05:08):
Yeah, that's a tough balancing act. You do it very well.

Shelby Craig (05:11):
Thank you.

Stew Redwine (05:11):
But that's a tough one 'cause it's like people, either me, I guess we'll talk about me, it's like I either just go, Ugh, it's not worth it. Or get defensive or you know.

Shelby Craig (05:20):
Well it's easy to get defensive as you create stuff, right? 'cause it comes from you.

Stew Redwine (05:24):
Yeah.

Shelby Craig (05:24):
It hurts a bit. <laugh> when it doesn't land and you're like, oh, like could you put your, I mean I don't think there's a good creative out there that doesn't care.

Stew Redwine (05:32):
You know, I will say this is a kind of a consequence of this AI stuff that I'm experiencing. I'll tell me what you think. But it's like pre where we are right now where it's like mass adoption and very universal understanding of like people of all ages knowing that you can pretty much go to chat GBT and ask anything. You're not gonna Google search back. You're getting a thoughtful answer. I mean it's not thinking, but you know, whatever. Okay, here's my point. Every creative now has been put on notice. And I mean this in a good way actually. Maybe a way to think of it is like let's say we were all getting together. You and me and all the creatives at Oxford were getting together to put on a play or something and one of the people gets on stage and I go, hey, try 10 different ways you could come into that room. 'cause the character's gonna come into the room and they do two and they go, oh that's all I got. I'm Well what do you mean there's a door and there's a window. That's it. And it's kinda understandable.

Shelby Craig (06:21):
Yeah. And often those concepts might be the only concepts. Whereas if they were at the beginning of their career guarantee whoever they're working for happen to me probably happened to you. You respond to a brief, you know, your creative director, whoever you're working for at the time, tells you come to me with 10 ideas and give him the 10 ideas. He crumbles 'em up and throws 'em in the trash. Okay, now start working. Right? Because those are the obvious, those are the ones that Yep. You need to get through to get to the other stuff. But

Stew Redwine (06:51):
I can remember we pitched LendingTree and the guy over there, Todd Lauer's, awesome. Woohoo. All right. And so we were doing like audio and tv, it was pre you, you would've loved it. And we beat it to death. Okay?

Shelby Craig (07:03):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Stew Redwine (07:03):
And I think we presented like 54 ideas. It was me and Dan. So you can imagine.

Shelby Craig (07:08):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (07:08):
So it was a spreadsheet <laugh>, okay. But this is what was crazy. Todd's cool. Like Todd's super cool, super cool, he's cool. Big standup comedy guy, like super cool guy. And he sat there and he let us present it all like 54 ideas. I swear it was like 50 55 ideas. Something like that. He's like, oh those are good. Yeah are good. He's like, yeah, you know, maybe two of those I haven't heard before.

Shelby Craig (07:29):
Yeah. Because the obvious stuff comes to the forefront.

Stew Redwine (07:32):
I even wanna say though, that was after us even thinking we'd worked on it hard. Which makes your point even further down the line. Like you really gotta

Shelby Craig (07:39):
Work. Yeah, you do. You have to put in the effort. 'cause the good stuff is connecting the dots between the things that nobody else expected. So I mean a good use of AI is to anyone listening that is working on ideas. Yeah. Put the brief or whatever it is into it. Get those 20 whatever and put those on the do not present list. 'cause those will be the ones that are too obvious and everyone will do then keep going.

Stew Redwine (08:02):
I think that's great. That's a great idea. 'cause that's kind of what it was. I mean it just blew my mind. I just remember he cussed so gracefully, humbly. He's like, yeah, maybe, maybe maybe two of those I haven't seen. He's like, we've been pitched by everybody. <laugh>. Yeah <laugh>. And you're like man, that was my best stuff, you know? And then what's funny with that one is we ended up doing founder spokesperson. You know, I guess there was an insight in that. Shelby, I'd like to get your thought. 'cause like I said, it's like I've always had to rely on other people and helpful. You know, AI helps me too. Like understand my own thinking. They'd had a Jim Henson puppet licensed Lenny.

Shelby Craig (08:34):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (08:34):
And Lenny had an attitude, Lenny is a straight talker and it was like, well what's that based on? Like what was his personality? What was he based on? Oh, our founder. Oh your, so it's basically your founder as a Muppet, but you don't say it's the founder's a Muppet.

Kermit (08:46):
It's not

Stew Redwine (08:47):
Easy being green <laugh>. What if we just let your founder be who he is? Yeah. And that's what we ended up doing. Which is like, so I don't know, that's an insight, but it blew my mind. It was a moment when we were talking to them. I'm like, so Lenny's Doug. And they were kind of like, yeah, he's, he's Doug. And I was like, oh, why don't we not abstract?

Shelby Craig (09:08):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (09:08):
Anyway, <laugh>,

Shelby Craig (09:09):
You're connecting to us. I mean it, it is kind of a, that's the feeling you want when you wanna know if it's a good insight. You want the, huh? I haven't thought about

Stew Redwine (09:17):
It like that. That's exactly what it, that's the response.

Shelby Craig (09:18):
That's the response you want. 'cause all an insight is is something everyone knows but doesn't notice.

Stew Redwine (09:25):
Right.

Shelby Craig (09:25):
They know it. They probably, they knew it deep down. Oh that's Lenny. But they didn't notice it. You told them, Hey look at this.

Stew Redwine (09:31):
Look that's Doug.

Shelby Craig (09:32):
That's like good, good comedy.

Stew Redwine (09:33):
We should have done a spot where he ripped the head off and he revealed it was done like that would've taken it to the next level. For sure. That would idea. That would've been a good

Shelby Craig (09:40):
Idea. Idea, yeah. Difference there though, between the idea and the insight. The insight's, the thing that everyone knows but doesn't notice. The idea is what you do with it. But you need the insight to get to the idea.

Stew Redwine (09:51):
Yeah. And I mean there's plenty out there about like what isn't an insight? And I don't get too pressed about that because it's like, let people use words however they want.

Shelby Craig (09:59):
Sure, yeah.

Stew Redwine (09:59):
Because the point is good work,

Shelby Craig (10:01):
The point is good work. But don't gimme a 30 page deck on insights. Nope. It should be a sentence.

Stew Redwine (10:07):
It's one statement.

Shelby Craig (10:09):
Yeah. I mean people get, you know, we've been in this business long enough and have seen enough briefs nine times out of 10. The insight in the brief is just an observation. That's okay. Observations are good insight's. Just what you did with it next. And you need those, you need the observations.

Stew Redwine (10:23):
Yeah. It starts there. I mean the point is just to do the work. Takes work.

Shelby Craig (10:28):
Exactly. And insight is work. It's hard. It's the place everyone stumbles on the brief. You know, I was right in there. Tell me something about the problem in a new way. Or I think one time I prompt people now flip the problem on its head or you know, the thing I just told you a second ago. Tell me something everyone knows but nobody notices. Everyone's like, what? Yeah. 'cause it doesn't just, it doesn't exist anywhere. You have to make it like that's the hard part. Like you can't find it somewhere. Like you don't, you can't search it, you can't. I dunno, I haven't seen that many good insights coming out of AI yet. But you know, maybe there will.

Stew Redwine (10:59):
I've thrown some stuff in there to try to get it to like try to parrot but it doesn't, you know, it's kind of the same with writing. If anything it gets me a little further down the road.

Shelby Craig (11:09):
Yeah. Because it just pulls what's out there. And I think that's the limitation between AI and, and insight is creative. I would say at the end of the day it's a creative act and that's, you know, it's not creating the new and and novel by laterally jumping. That's the hard part. It's getting, for everyone listening, I'm holding up my arms and there's like two lanes. AI usually is you know, following a path. But to get to the other one, that's the jump that you need to take. Have you read any of Edward de Bono stuff before? It's kinda like the godfather of creativity.

Vito (11:42):
I'm gonna make him un awfully can refuse. I

Shelby Craig (11:44):
Have a quote from him. He says creativity involves breaking out of established patterns in order to look at things in a different way.

Stew Redwine (11:50):
That's what we're talking about.

Shelby Craig (11:51):
That's what we're talking about. And that's AI's not really doing different yet 'cause it's pulling from what exists.

Stew Redwine (11:57):
And it might get there.

Shelby Craig (11:59):
Yeah it

Stew Redwine (11:59):
Might. But we're already there. If we choose to be, we have the opportunity.

Shelby Craig (12:03):
Yeah. Don't shy away from the work he said it takes work to get to the work. It does. You try to shortcut it. You're short changing the creative act.

Stew Redwine (12:11):
So gimme an example of an insight

Shelby Craig (12:13):
First. I think the best place to look for insights is in standup comedy.

Stew Redwine (12:17):
Yeah. Like everything you're talking about to me is the way all the best jokes work.

Shelby Craig (12:21):
Yeah,

Stew Redwine (12:21):
That's exactly like, I mean there's Seinfeld who's like, you know the thing is with like he's doing that but then like Chappelle is who I think, I mean the goat, his whole payoff at the end is you go ah

Shelby Craig (12:33):
Yeah that's every joke, every good joke. But if you wanna learn how to write insights, if you wanna learn how to craft them, study medias because they're the masters of taking something that everyone knows but not noticing it in that way.

Stew Redwine (12:48):
Okay. So Shane McGillis has a great one where he does it is about racism and he talks about how he kind of thinks it's like being hungry and he is like, you know, I wasn't really feeling racist until a hamburger cut me off on the freeway. <laugh> so good, right? Like that's a hot button topic. But I'm like, I had never thought of racism like hung like a passing state.

Shelby Craig (13:08):
Yeah. This other comedian, he was talking about the difference of when the doorbell rings when we were kids versus today when we were kids, the doorbell rings. It's like a celebration. Come on in everyone, somebody's here. This is exciting. We have a visitor and today it's like shut the blinds. Who the fuck's here <laugh>. You know like you know it's like it's a threat today. It's a threat. Yeah. And that again, we all know this, we all know that it was great when we were kids but we're not connecting the dots Again, signs of great insight is just, is that,

Stew Redwine (13:38):
Yeah and you've said before it's like it's not an insight but I guess it's where the insight goes is that ultimately then you want to express it in an idea of saying something in a way that hasn't been said before or saying something that hasn't been said before. Am I butchering that?

Shelby Craig (13:50):
Tell me something I haven't heard before or in a way I haven't seen or heard it.

Stew Redwine (13:56):
Right. So racism I hadn't heard of in thinking of it through the lens of hunger is actually really helpful.

Shelby Craig (14:01):
Yeah, it frames it for you.

Stew Redwine (14:03):
Right? And thinking through the response to the door is empathetic and how, 'cause you're kinda like you're nostalgic for when it was exciting.

Shelby Craig (14:10):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (14:11):
You are like what did we leave behind?

Shelby Craig (14:13):
Yeah. Why are we this way now?

Stew Redwine (14:14):
So let's try to do it so we'll observe a human behavior. So I was driving down the five freeway to get here and I'll just tell you my story. Maybe we'll get an insight out of it. So I put in the destination where we are here in Van Nuys, California at Quest Pacifica Studios. And I remember I looked across down at the five, 'cause it says like a bridge across. I was like Ah. And I saw how backed up it was and then I intuitively went up to the old road, which is like a two lane that you can take to kind of avoid the five. But at the end of the day, ultimately you have to go through the new hall pass either way. So my observation was the five was backed up and I did my best to and other people did our best to avoid it by getting on the old road.

(14:57):
Ultimately though we all ended up in the same backed up traffic in the new hall pass. 'cause there was only one way through. And then I will note I was using ways 'cause intentionally I'm like I'm gonna get around this. This was funny. This is true too. I thought Waze is gonna tell me to go on the old road and not get on the five 'cause that looks like terrible. And Waze you know, knows that and but there's like two ways outta Santa Clarita, which is where I live and it didn't, it like told me to go back on the five and I stayed on the old road.

Shelby Craig (15:23):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (15:24):
I'm like whatever,

Shelby Craig (15:25):
I'm gonna because you don't like sitting still. I know you.

Stew Redwine (15:27):
Yeah, exactly. <laugh>. Exactly. So anyway, turning that into an insight, that's my story. Like how would you approach that? And I know we're doing this really quick, but in general like how do you think through then turning that into an insight? Like that's the behavior that we're observing.

Shelby Craig (15:40):
Yeah. So like as a driver you're getting in a car to go somewhere to move. So when it stops inherently it feels uncomfortable because you're trying to go somewhere and you're not moving. So, but you are willing to take a roundabout way to get there as long as you're moving. If you're driving, as long as you're moving, you could still deal with the suffering. You know, you still get there at the same time probably. 'cause ways always lies to you as we know. The counter always goes up <laugh> ways of the tease that tells you, hey come over here, come on, let me tell you something. Yes. And you follow And then disappoints you,

Stew Redwine (16:10):
I heard one guy break it down, he was like, MapQuest is like printed directions. Like go five miles, take a left. You know, Google Maps was like, you know, updating, we found a better route. Would you like to take it? Waze is drive through that guy's yard. <laugh>, <laugh>,

Shelby Craig (16:23):
Erratic and irrational.

Stew Redwine (16:24):
You're taking the observation of that behavior of like I wanted to take an alternate route. I'm using ways to make an alternate rear route. The insight is I will take more pain as long as I'm moving.

Shelby Craig (16:36):
Yeah, you'll feel less separate as long as you're moving forward and there's something insightful in that. It's not right yet. You know, I think insights take a lot of writing and crafting, but there's something in that truth of human behavior. Especially when driving. As long as you're moving, you feel like you're going forward even if it still hurts.

Stew Redwine (16:53):
Yeah, I think that's starting to sound right. That sounds in the direction of like the work we've done together where it's like that's starting to sound like a truth.

Shelby Craig (16:58):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (16:59):
We would figure out a way to phrase it And there's something underneath that that then I always feel like there's a piece of insight work that's a piece of comedy actually too, which is like compassion. Yeah. And like we're just people we're flawed. Like all the best. Diamonds have a flaw. Lab grown diamonds don't have flaws. Real diamonds too diamonds are for, so we have these flaws, we make mistakes. Everybody makes

Shelby Craig (17:20):
Mistakes

Stew Redwine (17:20):
And it's like that's okay.

Shelby Craig (17:22):
And that's why insight work is so important in any sort of advertising. 'cause you're just talking to people at the end of the day.

Stew Redwine (17:28):
So if it was a customer, like if this was, we were breaking down a persona for some and I like actually that we're not starting with a product with this idea. It's just a story of a behavior is like oh people are willing to put up with more inconvenience as long as they perceive they're still moving towards their goal. Which I just use too many words and too many syllables but,

Shelby Craig (17:46):
And maybe even tack something onto the end of it. Like a question but which route was actually harder.

Stew Redwine (17:51):
Right. There we go. Like now we're talking.

Shelby Craig (17:53):
That's where you make someone think about something in a new way. Like would it have been easier just to sit on the five even though it was going slow and listen to whatever you're listening to and think about it rather than stressing out, trying to make every light and turn left and crazy traffic and all that stuff.

Stew Redwine (18:08):
Yeah. It's like the perception of progress beats out sitting still.

Shelby Craig (18:12):
Yeah. The false progress

Stew Redwine (18:14):
Slow and steady wins the race. See, somebody else had already said it. So let's talk about something we've seen audio do particularly well. B2B advertising. My personal theory is that because B2B products are often more conceptual, they lend themselves to an audio environment. So like when you're talking about an ERP solution or even e-commerce, like that's actually a concept, right? It's not a physical thing that I can describe. So it is my personal theory is that like that then okay that's in the mind more and hearing is in the mind more not outside, you know? So I'm, it lends itself towards that. There's also a lot of people in business listening and most business purchase cycles take a long time and audio works better over time. There's a lot of research out there about that. So it's like audio has some inherent advantages when you look at B2B advertising.

Shelby Craig (19:02):
And there's probably one more thing that I notice about B2B as well is that works with audio and it's a parallel is people are, especially with podcast, people choose to listen to a podcast. You know, you pick a podcast, it's not like you're just letting it come on most B2B situations, they're typically looking for something, they're seeking a solution to something. They usually have clear defined problems that they might not know of but there's problems that they face.

Stew Redwine (19:28):
Yeah. And so the target is predisposed to be receptive.

Shelby Craig (19:31):
Yeah. They're seeking an answer.

Stew Redwine (19:33):
Yeah. And it's like we have the answer.

Shelby Craig (19:35):
Yes.

Stew Redwine (19:36):
So that's just so exciting. Like it is invigorating to me talking about insights and when we start to actually break it, there's a feel.

Shelby Craig (19:42):
Yeah,

Stew Redwine (19:43):
There's a feel where it's like, I know we didn't get all the way there, but it's a completely different feel than just like transactional. Gimme the brief what's like we are actually working through it. So, and a big part of that is just observation and you know some I'm really proud that we did together is all the work we've done with Shopify and that really started with some observation and then the way that that ultimately came to life in audio. Can you tell me about that?

Shelby Craig (20:03):
Yeah, we've been working with Shopify for a few years now. You're selling keep climbing track sales on Shopify awesome product. People love it. What do they use it for and what do they love most about? It makes them money. People love money, especially businesses And one of the earliest things we help them with,

Stew Redwine (20:20):
I want to add something to that 'cause I know you believe it, it does make 'em money. I know you already think this. It makes 'em money doing what they love.

Kermit (20:26):
You can fail at what you don't want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.

Shelby Craig (20:31):
Great point. Yeah. It's a way to take what they love and turn it into a way to survive, you know, a way to live and a way to succeed. You know, I think everyone's seeking success at the end of the day, but we helped them early on. You know, they identified a lot of their customers and their problems and it all kind of came back to one thing is like people use Shopify to sell. You know, their whole thing is about selling, making money. That's what people are trying to do there. That's their ultimate goal. And we are playing around with the product and you know, reading a lot of stuff on Reddit. Reddit I think is a great place for insights 'cause it's real people having real conversations and we are looking at some stuff and they have this chaching sound effect that plays when you get a sail. And naturally everyone loves when they get a sale.

Shelby Craig (21:14):
Where are my sales at?

Shelby Craig (21:16):
People loved the sound they were asking. I think some of the Reddit things just would say like, I just love that sound.

Stew Redwine (21:21):
I love that sound.

Shelby Craig (21:23):
Oh this doesn't feel good. When you hear it chaching and you're in the other room, you hear your phone buzz and go chaching. That's how you know you're onto something or you know you're succeeding and it's just something that their audience loved. And it's also something that's just associated with making money. A cash register. Chaching. Like you don't need to explain it, everyone knows that means money but they weren't using it in their ads, especially in audio. And we were like, people love this about you. It's your ultimate proposition or whatever you want to call, whatever marketing term you want to use.

Stew Redwine (21:52):
Promise.

Shelby Craig (21:53):
There you go. Promise. It's your ultimate promise for people is that they'll sell something and make money

Stew Redwine (21:58):
Solution.

Shelby Craig (21:59):
Yeah. So use it in your ads. So people build that association. Selling equals Shopify. Shopify equals selling whatever way you want to stitch it.

Stew Redwine (22:08):
It's one of those where like it feels like to me like in a fantasy movie or maybe a sci-fi movie where they're like we have this old crate from the planet Chini, you know, and they blow and it's like that's the ancient Elvin super weapon. The

Gandalf (22:23):
Blade is of

Stew Redwine (22:24):
Elvis

Gandalf (22:24):
Make.

Stew Redwine (22:25):
Yeah. You know like they had this like ugly, it sounded too obvious. Well they'd even made a button, they'd made a chaching button. Yeah. That like came and went. So yeah, I remember you found all that in the social listening. You know we called it social listening, which is read

Shelby Craig (22:37):
Reviews. Yeah. Reading Reddit. Really reading people

Stew Redwine (22:39):
Talking well on YouTube. I remember like you found some YouTube stuff where like people had the sound.

Shelby Craig (22:44):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (22:44):
That means somebody's going to the trouble to like record that sound or find that sound and play that sound and play that sound on repeat. You're like you've got an observation.

Shelby Craig (22:52):
Yeah. I think on my, in the pitch presentation, that wasn't very long that we fed in there. I put in a YouTube clip that someone stitched together like six hours of Chich. Right. <laugh>. It was like if someone loves it this much.

Stew Redwine (23:03):
That's what I was trying to say. And if I remember like I remember you noticed it and you brought it up and then like with our powers combined, like I remember being very adamant on we can do this, we can include this in every live read. And that's where I feel like our forces came together.

Shelby Craig (23:19):
Yeah. 'cause my initial idea was hey use this in your audio ads. You know, mainly produced radio spots, et cetera. Use it as like a sonic logo, you know, whatever you wanna call it. A sonic sign off, you know, signature. But you were like, hey we could use this in podcast.

Stew Redwine (23:33):
Yeah let's go.

Shelby Craig (23:33):
And I was like, how, you know, like just, just watch <laugh>.

Stew Redwine (23:37):
And I remember like that was funny 'cause you could still get on the phone. I mean you could today, but it's different now. But it was like talking to people, like producers, even our friends over at SiriusXM who I love was like okay so we need you guys to use a sound effect in the read. And well we don't do that. It's like, okay, like I'm looking at a soundboard right now. Shelby and I have a soundboard in the studio room. It's like I'm talking to the person on the phone, I'm like, do you have a soundboard? Can you look at your soundboard?

Shelby Craig (23:59):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (24:00):
Do you see the programmable button? There's a pad with nine propable button. Yeah. Okay. So what you're gonna do, you're gonna program this <laugh>. Yeah. It's like you can do it.

Shelby Craig (24:07):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (24:07):
Don't tell me you can't do it. Yeah.

Shelby Craig (24:09):
<laugh>. You know it's, but what was great about it is, and you challenged me, you were like okay, find like 10 different ways we could use it in the scripts and fun ways and blah blah blah. And only through like insightful thinking craft. 'cause I think that ultimately what you're talking about just there at the soundboard is craft. It is you have a background in craft and audio. So you speak the language that they speak. So when they say no, you could say well actually yes you can.

Stew Redwine (24:33):
Yeah. Let me tell you the button,

Shelby Craig (24:34):
Let me show you how.

Stew Redwine (24:35):
Yeah. <laugh>,

Shelby Craig (24:35):
You know <laugh> which leads to good ideas and good work at the end of the day. 'cause there's craft and hair, you know, and you're able to make stuff that it's still hard. Right. It was a struggle to get it there. It was. But because you and I were both persistent about it,

Stew Redwine (24:50):
Yeah

Shelby Craig (24:50):
It worked

Stew Redwine (24:51):
Well now it's baseline. Like now it's table stakes. But we had to fight and like Gravity wanted to pull it out. We then did do performance. You know a big thing we did was we were finally able to do like a good look at performance at a window of one quarter of like so what? So this is great insight. The kaching, the fact that it's paying off massively in people's brains. The association's memory great, but did it work? And what's nice is we were able to see over a quarter every single read, and this is a significant buy that over a quarter out of three reads. So that's roughly let's say one drop, one ad per month for three months. If they used it once we saw a 13% performance improvement. And if they used it two or three times we saw a 30% performance improvement across the funnel. So it had an impact.

Shelby Craig (25:38):
Yeah. And it's nice to prove that you and I always knew it was gonna work of course because of our experience.

Stew Redwine (25:43):
One I knew it would work if you kept doing it. Like it works if you work it. That's my view of the sonic branding stuff. Like you've got to commit.

Shelby Craig (25:50):
Yeah. And you and I knew the marketing science or whatever you wanna call it, we read all the studies before we even proposed this and we knew all this stuff. Yeah. Right. Like we had in our brain, in our library of our brains, we had Yeah. You know, using stuff in repetition builds association. That's good. You know

Stew Redwine (26:08):
There's a 86% correlation between somebody wanting to take an action and hearing a sound that they like.

Shelby Craig (26:12):
Yeah. We knew in our brains that like something unexpected, you know, jolts them out. Exactly. Unexpected for the media channel jolts them out of their days or whatever. You know, we knew that there's some stat probably about that but it was already in our brain. We didn't have to regurgitate it. We might've for the pitch. Yeah, we probably did. And it's good to prove that it works 'cause that backs up our intellect or you know,

Stew Redwine (26:32):
Experience. Yeah. And also it's like set people up to have fun. Like there's so many reads where hosts had fun, I can't remember there's one where it was like all spooky and like they used the cha-ching over and over and over. It's like, it's like a sound coming from a distance and we've had fun with it. Like we did a 360 spot, we did cha Chings all around the world. Like it opened up a whole campaign and then I thought what was really cool, the performance is really cool. The performance is the coolest.

Vito (26:59):
The coolest.

Stew Redwine (27:00):
Everything else is icing on that cake was like you noticing you like sent me a TV spot and you're like, hey look what they're using their TV now <laugh>.

Shelby Craig (27:08):
If they wanna use it, great. But I think all of that demonstrates it's a sign of a good idea. Yes. As well. Like the fact that it's able to live on in other channels, other formats. It's inspiring hosts to do their thing too. They get them excited. You could see which hosts actually care about us 'cause they're the ones, you know, having fun with it, it's fertile and it's great that it grew and evolved into all the things that it did. And they get, you know, true sign of an idea. If it spurs more ideas, that's good.

Stew Redwine (27:37):
That's the real thing.

Shelby Craig (27:38):
If it kind of stops you, you're kinda like eh, it's probably might not be that rich <laugh>. But if everyone's like Yeah, do this, do this. You're starting to get onto something that's cool.

Stew Redwine (27:48):
Ideas be yet ideas.

Shelby Craig (27:49):
They do.

Stew Redwine (27:50):
They have energy.

Shelby Craig (27:51):
Insights are a form of ideas. Strategy is a form of ideas. You know, it's all about that new and novel editor to bonus Bono says it, you know, it's all about, he has this other quote that I love. He says, creativity gives us hope that there could be a worthwhile idea. It gives us the possibility of some sort of achievement to everyone. You know it's like democratic in some ways and liberating and

Stew Redwine (28:11):
It's ideas, it's imagination.

Vito (28:14):
Imagination.

Shelby Craig (28:16):
It's great. Like you spark it and that's why, you know, we've talked about this so much but that's why I'm so passionate about people exploring their ideas and doing the hard work because when you get it, like when you have those moments of like ah, it's probably one of the more rewarding parts of what we do. Just that that feeling of it's kind of euphoric, it's kind of humbling.

Stew Redwine (28:38):
I've also experienced that. It's like when we've really done our homework, I feel invincible. Yeah. Like the pitch does not feel I'm fearless. Yeah. You don't need a script for the pitch because I know it's like we did it and we did our best and this is a good idea. And then it's like fearless as opposed to earlier in my career it would be I gotta do some jazz hands and just make sure they don't look over here and pull these levers and just get 'em to say yes.

Shelby Craig (29:01):
Yeah. And that feeling is, you know, they're always at, what's the common question? How do you know it's gonna work? Right. That's always the question. Yes. How do, yes, how do you know it's gonna work If they feel that too, they won't ask that

Stew Redwine (29:09):
Question. That's exactly like if you're getting that question, how do you know it's gonna work? You haven't made the connection,

Shelby Craig (29:15):
You haven't landed it and it probably won't. You know what, I wanna make sure other creatives understand this. It's not always your fault,

Vito (29:21):
It's your fault.

Shelby Craig (29:22):
Like it could be a great idea that you have, maybe you're given the wrong problem, maybe you've been given the wrong audience. You know, maybe the brief isn't solving the business problem that the client actually has. You know, I think a lot of the stars need to align. Right. And that's why good briefs matter. That's why good problems to solve matter. You know, that's why this is a team sport. It's not just about the creative. Even though a lot of people put it on the creatives when you onto a good idea, you know, it, it just, it's not always your fault if it doesn't sell. I would say to other creatives,

Stew Redwine (29:50):
Well and I'd say like a lot of what you and I do is pitches. Like I think we did dozens you know, already this year. And I feel so much satisfaction just like doing that good pitch. Having the tension map. Like we do this thing where we do a tension map where there's you know, an audience truth, a brand truth, the tension that's created and then an insight and then we develop from that like strategy and develop this head into ideas. But it's just like, it's wild man. Like someone may never see over the eons of human history. No one, you know, basically is gonna see a lot of the stuff you and I have done. But I feel good about it still. Yeah. 'cause I'm like we did it

Shelby Craig (30:22):
Because we had to struggle through it.

Stew Redwine (30:23):
Well and it's good. Well I guess you're saying the struggles helps establish the value.

Shelby Craig (30:27):
Yeah. We had to struggle through it. We had to go through those mental hurdles of like is this good? I don't know if we've solved this yet. And then when you do feels better.

Stew Redwine (30:35):
I also feel just like I said, like bulletproof or invincible. Like pick up any one of those pitches. Flip to the creative section. That's good. Those are good ideas.

Shelby Craig (30:41):
Yeah. They're all good.

Stew Redwine (30:42):
Based on what we had

Shelby Craig (30:43):
A good parallel for people is like if anyone loves any sort of exercise, you're a runner.

Stew Redwine (30:48):
Yes.

Shelby Craig (30:49):
You have to love the training to love the race. You know, like you have to be in it for the training.

Stew Redwine (30:54):
Yes.

Shelby Craig (30:55):
Not for the race.

Stew Redwine (30:56):
Well the most successful actor I know he's in tons of commercials, does a ton of commercials and then a lot of photography. You've actually worked with him on stop. He opened up to me and he was just like, well my job's auditions. Yeah. He goes, sometimes I get to shoot and that's pretty cool. But the job is auditions.

Shelby Craig (31:11):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (31:12):
Which is, I feel like the same thing you're saying.

Shelby Craig (31:14):
Exactly. Exactly the same. And he, you have to enjoy that part.

Stew Redwine (31:17):
Yes. And I've really come to enjoy being in the workshop and knowing I've done a good job. I also said, I shared with you earlier, like I've been doing more home projects, a lot of stuff I do. Nobody notices, nobody's seen. And I, I don't even just mean my family, I mean like guests, whatever. But like I know that that thing up in the attic shelves I built in the attic, I did good.

Shelby Craig (31:35):
Yeah. 'cause you're a craftsman too,

Stew Redwine (31:37):
Right? So it's like now when I talk to the other junior creatives on the team and stuff like you have to be satisfied that you did your best work. I remember a friend of mine, you would love him, this guy Corey Edwards, he's a film director and I visited him when I moved out here like 12 years ago. He is at this place Prana Studios and it was the first time I'd really seen where they have all the stuff built up for these animated films that never got made. Okay. They've got the models like painted full-size models, the artwork, all their pitch material. And Corey basically expressed to me in that moment, I'm sure he said it in a very succinct way. Like well yeah, this is my job. I feel really good about these movie, all the movies he didn't make, you know, and he got to make movies. But it's like with us, I think of all the ads we didn't make and it's like you have to feel good about that and be satisfied that you, I can't remember who said this, but this idea of like a well-written poem has, it's like the click of a well-made box.

Shelby Craig (32:25):
Yeah, exactly Right. It's really true. You have to like that part of it. And I think you identify good creative talent and strategic talent by people who relish in that process and the ones who shy away from it try to shortcut it or maybe more focused on the fame at the end. Or like you said earlier, just want to get it done. You know they don't last.

Stew Redwine (32:46):
No. Or they get negative. There's a lot of cynicism. I think there's gonna be less now 'cause of this AI stuff. Actually I think it'll help like what we were talking about earlier. Like it'll help raise the bar for the people that love it and then they now know there's no question they have to up their game but they actually enjoy upping their game so they will. So everybody wins and the cynical types, it'll grind 'em out. Bye. 'cause if you create any friction that, and I've told, I've said this to my team, I go just know with an account manager or someone else that's using you as you know, collaborating with you as a shared service. If you provide any resistance, good or bad, like I was praising that you stand your ground, which I still believe, you just have to know that person's gonna go to chat GPT and ask what they just ask you. And you just gotta be really confident. Pick your battles

Shelby Craig (33:29):
For sure. I'm a believer you advertising's pretty negative industry.

Stew Redwine (33:33):
That's the part I don't like about it.

Shelby Craig (33:34):
Agree, completely agree. But there's a, it's counterproductive and counterintuitive because why do you think it is you have to be optimistic to come up with good stuff <laugh>. Like you can't be a cynic because like you said, ideas bring ideas. Like you have to jump from one thing to the next and only by being optimistic can you jump.

Stew Redwine (33:52):
It is an optimistic proposition to jump from one thing to the next thing

Shelby Craig (33:56):
You have to, otherwise you're gonna fall.

Stew Redwine (33:57):
You wouldn't jump.

Shelby Craig (33:58):
Yeah, you wouldn't jump <laugh>. I mean I think it's a negative industry because it's very critical and people get really critical of craft. And I also think advertising is full of creative people who don't want to be there. Every art director wants to be a director of photography.

Stew Redwine (34:14):
Well

Shelby Craig (34:15):
Every copywriter wants to be a script writer.

Stew Redwine (34:17):
So let me tell you something for me, and you've known me five years, I say the first two years you knew me, I was going negative, I was burning out, you might not have perceived it, but I was on the inside and I reached this point of acceptance like you know what, I'm the head of creative at Oxford Road. Did I wake up one day when I got my teeth originally knocked out and when I was in fifth grade and see a vision one day I wanna be the head of creative at an audio performance. A no. I wanted different things. Okay. At my age. Right. It's like the unlock for me that happened in the last like particularly three to four years. So right in the cusp of getting to know you and I think you can probably mark a change with me I bet about two to three years ago

Shelby Craig (34:52):
For sure.

Stew Redwine (34:52):
It's where I made a decision to commit to my craft and for a while you've seen it in my zoom calls, there's a painting behind me of Odysseus and it's from the legend, which I'm stoked for Christopher Nolan. Right. It's coming out The Odyssey. He burns this ore and he makes this deal with the gods and it goes go inland where they won't even recognize an ore, burn the ore and commit to your craft in your home and your wife.

Shelby Craig (35:11):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (35:12):
And like I had this moment, it was about three or four years ago, it was like okay, what would a guy that was committed to this committed to be the best at this do, what would he do? What would that character do? Well he would listen to this, he would read this, he would do this, but da da da. And like I made a decision man. And you've seen the fruit of that

Shelby Craig (35:27):
For sure. Yeah. You're so much more productive I would say is number one. Like you produce a lot, you know, creatives that don't produce get frustrated.

Stew Redwine (35:35):
So I'm contrasting that with the character saying is like, yeah that is the recipe for dissatisfaction and then resentment and then leaking that toxically on others is not accepting where you are. Like it's

Shelby Craig (35:47):
Easier to be a bully, right? Like there's a lot of bullies in advertising.

Stew Redwine (35:51):
Well and I think that what you're identifying though, that is rooted in they don't want to be where they are.

Shelby Craig (35:56):
Yeah. They want it to be a director, a filmmaker. I mean it's the whole reason why, I mean I could pick gripes with advertising all day, but like one of my biggest is how ad agencies call ads films, right? It's not a film like you want it to be a film because you want to, but you do. You want to go to Sundance and you want like you want it to be a film. Why do you think con's at con, you know like

Stew Redwine (36:17):
Well and I heard a guy say once he's like, you know it's all a bunch of failed artists.

Shelby Craig (36:20):
Exactly.

Stew Redwine (36:21):
Which is one way of looking at it. You know what the negative ones are that Yeah. But the positive ones are like, I guess that's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it's like this is what I'm doing now.

Shelby Craig (36:32):
Well the positive ones are either acceptance or they're making what they can out of it when they can. You know like sure there's the frustrated ones that get like they just accept it and they get on. But like the positive ones are like alright this is the brief that I could make into something great.

Stew Redwine (36:46):
Just do

Shelby Craig (36:46):
It. You know, this is the brief I could put me into Let's

Stew Redwine (36:48):
Go.

Shelby Craig (36:49):
Or they're also like you and me and everyone else who's more positive. They're making stuff outside of work too.

Stew Redwine (36:55):
Yes. That's helpful.

Shelby Craig (36:57):
Rick Rubin talks about how like your career doesn't have to be your passion too. Like you know, your art doesn't have to be your career. You should still make stuff for the act of making it.

Stew Redwine (37:05):
Well, okay, so like I did a fiction podcast in the last year, vampire Slayers from Kansas. That's cool. Took over two decades. But it's funny, I would say like in this same three year period I'm telling you about, there was a set of storyboards, okay for this space epic called Rainfall City. All right. I stopped it around the same age. I just stopped. Yeah. Four years ago I finished it

Shelby Craig (37:26):
And how did it feel?

Stew Redwine (37:27):
Amazing. And that was it. And now it's like there's this like assembly line where I'm like, oh I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do, I'll make the Whistler trailer. Oh that'll be fun. My freaking identity isn't tied up in it.

Shelby Craig (37:37):
But you like making it.

Stew Redwine (37:38):
I enjoy making it but it was weird when I was frustrated in the advertising world. I think So if like we're talking to the chief audio officers that are listening or other creative that are listening, it's kind of like what we're saying is like, you know what like take whatever those negative tapes are. Just take 'em outta the tape player for three months and just do the best you can. Like make the best thing you can with the widgets on your workbench. Is that what you would say?

Shelby Craig (38:00):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (38:00):
Or get out or quit.

Shelby Craig (38:01):
You know when the good opportunities there make it do the other stuff you have to do with a smile on your face and do stuff outside of your work. If you can't do it at work, how many hours in a week? You only work so much. <laugh>, <laugh>. If you want ideas to be your career, stay optimistic about it and remember why you got into it in the first place. There's a lot worse things. You could be doing a lot worse jobs. You're pretty lucky to be able to do the creative stuff and just keep using your mind.

Stew Redwine (38:28):
Yeah, I think that's particularly important with the AI stuff. I could talk to you forever. This is awesome. We gotta get to the heart of ad infinitum.

Shelby Craig (38:36):
Let's do it.

Stew Redwine (38:37):
Which is actually grading some ads. So yeah, we're zooming in on one aspect of it 'cause of Shopify what we do with Shopify. That being B2B business to business. Wanted to zoom in on that. A recent top spender at Magellan. You can get a free demo for you Mighty chief audio officers that are listening. You can get a free demo at magellan.ai/ad infinitum. That's where we pulled these air checks for IBM. That was one that identified that. What I noticed in looking at the spinning is they had a decent amount of spin last year then they haven't spent at all this year and then it just popped up here in the middle of the summer. Let's get into it. This is the first IBM ad on what's right with Nick Wright from June 26th, 2025. Let's see if these have an insight.

Kermit (39:21):
The best AI assistant isn't one that knows the whole world. It's one that knows your world. A custom assistant built on Watson X with IBM's granite models can leverage your trusted data. Be easily trained on your workflows and integrate with your apps. It can be tuned to do just what you need because the more AI knows about your world, the more it can help you do. Learn more at ibm.com/productivity. IBM let's create.

Shelby Craig (39:51):
Alright,

Stew Redwine (39:51):
The game is

Shelby Craig (39:52):
Afoot. I do like the line. I mean I'm not gonna be a, I hate those creatives that just say everything shit that they don't make <laugh>. So I'm not gonna do that. I do like the line about the best AI assistant isn't the one that knows the whole world. It knows your world. I think that reframes what AI does a little bit for people. I think it's the whole idea of personalization I think is, I think they're onto something there. I don't always buy into like just the creating lists about what it does.

Stew Redwine (40:20):
Did you like the groovy music track? <laugh>?

Shelby Craig (40:24):
I'm not musical at all, but yeah, I'm <laugh>. I could go without that.

Stew Redwine (40:28):
Okay. Hey, let me ask you this.

Shelby Craig (40:29):
Was that a pretty spot?

Stew Redwine (40:30):
This is a pretty spot for sure. Or

Shelby Craig (40:32):
Running where

Stew Redwine (40:32):
In the podcast, what's right with Nick Wright and the episode Nick Wright reacts to NBA draft Cooper Flag Maverick still in Harper. Spurs Ace Bailey failing.

Shelby Craig (40:42):
Yeah, I think it's wrong for the channel

Stew Redwine (40:43):
Here. You can't see this but I'm showing Shelby. So pre-roll I see 1, 2, 3, 4, 4 ads in the pre-roll. Yep. And then I got a midroll. Now this is the thing, we're still calling stuff Midrolls and this, I have an ax grind on this. How many midrolls do you see? <laugh> a thousand, right? Okay. There's three pods. There's three pods and then there's 1, 2, 3, 4 post rolls. Okay, so which one of these is a midroll? And then you can kind of see like that looks like a 60 and a 60. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 60, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 provides 26 ads. Sounds like a radio show.

Shelby Craig (41:18):
Exactly. Like I'm not even talking about the creative, it's just they're missing a massive opportunity in the channel.

Stew Redwine (41:24):
Look, it's easy to port over radio creative. So that's one thing I also wanted to point out. Like I hear what you're saying, I also feel like there's an undercurrent of creepiness that it knows your world and because the more AI know and I'm not like an anti, I'm like whatever. Like all my stuff's open, like whatever.

Shelby Craig (41:41):
Yeah, you're pretty pro ai.

Stew Redwine (41:42):
Yeah. But you know, the more AI knows about your world, the more it can help you do. Like there I could see it rubbing some people the wrong way.

Shelby Craig (41:49):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (41:49):
And it's not really clear on what they mean by that.

Shelby Craig (41:52):
Yeah, it's a bit loose and it's not really sync minded in service to a really clear problem.

Stew Redwine (41:59):
Let's do this before you grade it and before I give you audio that looks great. So let's listen to another one. So this is IBM on how I built this with Guy Ross within seven days. This is on 6 19, 20, 25.

Vito (42:09):
Bigger isn't always better, especially with ai. Supersized models can drain your budget fast. Smaller ones are smart and can help cut AI costs up to 90%. Right-Size your models@ibm.com. The AI built for business IBM M.

Stew Redwine (42:29):
So that sounded like it was Guy Roz, but he didn't identify.

Shelby Craig (42:33):
Missed opportunity. <laugh>

Stew Redwine (42:36):
Probably price opportunity.

Shelby Craig (42:37):
Yeah. I mean, yeah, probably price opportunity.

Stew Redwine (42:40):
Look less ads though. Nine total ads.

Shelby Craig (42:42):
I mean I, it would feel more obviously if it's his voice in his show feels more genuine and connected to it feels more trusted. But there's no, I don't know like what authority does Guy Raz have on ai? Like does he know a lot about it? They built it but he doesn't talk about it <laugh> like that would be interesting if he was like, I don't know the context of what episode it was on, but if it was in an episode all about ai, like maybe it would've made sense.

Stew Redwine (43:06):
Yeah or maybe like that line he said, you know, supersized models can drain your budget fast. Like in the case of many companies we've talked about on this da da da. Yeah. Just somehow link

Shelby Craig (43:15):
It relating it back to what he talks about.

Stew Redwine (43:18):
You know what, let's do this. We're actually gonna listen to the next two so you could talk about 'em all together because I, what I want to get at is, is there IBM insight that's driving their audio the way they're showing up with audio. So you have these two. So here's the next one. This is IBM on pivot on 6 27. 2025.

Shelby Craig (43:36):
Support for Pivot comes from IBM. Bigger isn't always better, especially with ai. Supersize models can drain your budget fast. Smaller ones are smart and can help cut AI costs up to 90%. Rightsize your models@ibm.com. The AI built for business IBMI

Stew Redwine (43:57):
Recognize that

Shelby Craig (43:57):
Script. Yeah, they're not letting them put it in their voice, are they?

Stew Redwine (44:01):
It's interesting though, that pivot, they did the music and that's Kara Swisher, that's the host.

Shelby Craig (44:05):
Yeah. I don't mind when some hosts put music under their reads. Some do it in an okay way.

Stew Redwine (44:10):
Do you wanna listen to the last one then we rate 'em all.

Shelby Craig (44:11):
Let's do it

Stew Redwine (44:12):
Right. IBM, this is your last chance with Shelby from the future IBM on today in focus on 6 22 20 25. It's important to note like these all were between 6 19, 20 25 and 6 27, 20 25. We're talking about observations. Here we go.

Gandalf (44:27):
Test, test check one, two. You know you need unique New York. You know you need unique New York, does that sound all right? Ah, that's better. You can always tell something's missing when you get isolated results. Like AI, that's only right for one of your systems. Get AI that can work across your data and applications. Learn more@ibm.com. The AI built for business IBM.

Stew Redwine (44:57):
Okay. All right. That one added sound at the end. Bu bu bu.

Shelby Craig (45:02):
Hey cool. They used that at the end.

Stew Redwine (45:03):
So that's the four.

Shelby Craig (45:05):
I'm guessing he personalized that one.

Stew Redwine (45:07):
It sounded like it to me. Like that whole New York Unique New York is like a voiceover. Like a warmup.

Shelby Craig (45:12):
Yeah. I don't get it, but

Stew Redwine (45:14):
I didn't get it either.

Shelby Craig (45:15):
It does sound like he started to personalize it. I don't listen to his show so I don't know him. Maybe that means something to his audience. It could and if it does, cool.

Stew Redwine (45:22):
Well it was half the ad.

Shelby Craig (45:23):
Yeah, but I don't get the connection.

Stew Redwine (45:25):
I didn't totally get it either. So if you're gonna rate 'em from that first one was the produced spot and then we had the same one that was on how I Built This and Pivot. And then this last one, what would be your rank order?

Shelby Craig (45:37):
I'd probably rank the first one Best. Has a bit more craft to it. It says something in a way I haven't totally heard before about ai. You know, like it's trying to teach me something or enlighten me on something. You know that first line, the best AI assistant isn't one that knows the whole world. It's one that knows your world. Like I feel like that's trying to get people to think about it in a new way or just catch people's attention in a, just make them think about ai. The other two don't make me think about ai. Like I don't love when like a brand uses something that's like bigger isn't always better. You get in, change that in pretty much any product or anything.

Stew Redwine (46:13):
I thought it was an ad for trucks.

Shelby Craig (46:14):
Exactly. They could have taken the sentiment of that and just changed it in a little bit of a way like yeah, I haven't thought about it that way. It doesn't do that for

Stew Redwine (46:22):
Me. So the guy Roz Kara Swer one you'd put at the bottom or I'd say at the bottom. Oh at the very bottom. Okay. And then the next one up is Today In Focus, which was the one we just listened to where he did the unique

Shelby Craig (46:33):
New York because at least he personalized it.

Stew Redwine (46:36):
So here's what's

Shelby Craig (46:36):
Interesting. I'm not rating the personalization as good, but at least he

Stew Redwine (46:40):
Did. Yeah. And to your point, it's kind of like that might actually buy you some attention even though the sales message is shorter, they stayed.

Shelby Craig (46:48):
I would hope so,

Stew Redwine (46:49):
Right? That would be the thought.

Shelby Craig (46:50):
Yeah, that'd be a theory.

Stew Redwine (46:51):
So it's the same order audio Lytics gave what's right with Nick Wright, number one. And I think it's the clearest. It has all the key points in there. It's got the call to action and like we say a lot on ad infinitum, clarity has a cleverness all of its own. So it does that. And then the next one is the one that we were just talking about where it's like it had the bit of personalization today in focus and that might be good. I mean it's got enough of the sales message. There could be more. There could be more, but at least it did that where the other two at the bottom pivot and how I built this both just left a lot to be desired. Especially with what they left out. <laugh>, just no personalization

Shelby Craig (47:28):
For sure.

Stew Redwine (47:29):
It wasn't their voice. So what I'm hearing is like, and I'd like to get your thought on this is do you hear an insight in any of this? And then two, today in Focus has a Sonic logo at the end. It sounded like it had a Sonic logo at the end, which I don't know if I've heard before. For IBM, the two host red ones were kind of flat and they didn't do pe, personal endorsement and then the produced ones like using a jazzy music track. So it felt idiosyncratic

Shelby Craig (47:53):
For sure. I mean even the first one had a different tagline than the other ones. The other ones say the AI built for business IBM, the first one says IBM, let's create even a scripting level there disconnected.

Stew Redwine (48:04):
So what's your advice for IBM for the chief audio officers at IBM, Shelby Hayden? Greg, what is your advice?

Shelby Craig (48:09):
Define the core business problem you're trying to solve and then trust your strategists or agency to find what that problem means for people. You know, your customer, your audience. So help trust their translation of the problem for your business into a problem for humans. And then let them try to solve that with an idea. 'cause right now it feels like we're just trying to hit some proof points, which we'll get to, but let them come up with the idea first.

Stew Redwine (48:35):
And where do you come down on a sonic identity system? Which I know is a fancy way of saying recognizing IBM with their eyes closed.

Shelby Craig (48:42):
Well I know IBM has one. You should be using it for sure they do. IBM has a really strong brand so I think

Stew Redwine (48:49):
Well did you just hear one?

Shelby Craig (48:50):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (48:50):
Like if we were to translate individuals, that was three different approaches.

Shelby Craig (48:55):
Yeah, totally.

Stew Redwine (48:56):
Which I guess you could make a case for. However, I think these are all more the same than different. I mean the medium it's podcast. So how are you gonna show up in podcast?

Shelby Craig (49:04):
Yeah, I mean they do feel like they're, even though the format's different for each, they don't feel like they're coming from the same brief either. Nope. So like sure they should be different. ADU spot should be different than your short host read and it should be different than your real podcast spot that's endorsed. But at the end of the day, like they all still should come from the same idea and the same theme, the same insight, you know, above that the same problem. You know, your job at IBM is what's the problem and then let us help solve it for you.

Stew Redwine (49:31):
Here. Here. We could do this all day. We basically, we have,

Shelby Craig (49:34):
There's a lot to talk about.

Stew Redwine (49:35):
There's a lot to talk about. So what parting words of wisdom do you have in general for the chief audio officers that are listening? Shelby, from the future in the present.

Shelby Craig (49:44):
I mean I kind of have like three themes for doing what we do. The first one is creating, create three C's for me. Create craft and care. So make stuff, write it, write it down, use your brain, you know, do it yourself. Flex that muscle buddy. All those muscles that help you make things and then apply some craft, you know, so polish it, test it, let somebody else look at it, get another opinion, workshop it, throw it in the bin and start again like keep crafting. 'cause at the end of the day, it's only through that repetitive process that we make stuff better. Every artist could relate to that and then ultimately care about what you're doing. You know, I think we can't do any of this if we don't care. You know, I truly care about the work that put out. You have to care about it. And I think not just us as the creatives, but like you as chief audio officers and clients like care about what we're doing. You

Stew Redwine (50:35):
Have to like,

Shelby Craig (50:36):
If you don't care about it, how do you expect me to care about it? Because my job is to care about it.

Stew Redwine (50:39):
And I think it comes through somehow.

Shelby Craig (50:41):
Yeah. You know, make stuff, make it better and do it with heart. I think, you know, you just, you should care about all this stuff. I think sometimes we get too in our head too embedded in our businesses or in our brands or our product. But like the way out of that it's just caring a little more.

Stew Redwine (50:56):
I think that's right. And that's what we were talking about that earlier when I was talking about like the decision point. Like you know, create craft and care. I like that. And the caring piece is like you decide to care.

Shelby Craig (51:05):
That's a choice you have to make.

Stew Redwine (51:06):
And it's like, 'cause ultimately, you know what? We could break out the book of Ecclesiastes and say meaningless. Meaningless. Everything is meaningless. Even I guarantee at the highest amount of Olympus of any field that let's say the frustrated artist in advertising didn't achieve. I never did direct Dune Messiah. It's like I guarantee once you've done that, we've heard that the world is replete with these messages. Dennis Villa Navu is not, that does not satisfy, that doesn't fill it up. But you know what does is whether it is Dune Messiah or whether it's the next script for a mattress company.

Shelby Craig (51:39):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (51:40):
That you care. And I think something happens when you do that. It's like reality. Others, the universe rewards you. Totally.

Shelby Craig (51:48):
Absolutely. You know if we talked about AI a bit at the start of this, like don't just throw it into AI and I'm not anti ai, but like don't throw it into AI because you don't care.

Stew Redwine (51:57):
That's it. Throw it into ai 'cause you do care.

Shelby Craig (51:59):
Yeah. If you care, use AI to its full potential. But don't drop the brief into AI and see what it puts out and go present that.

Stew Redwine (52:08):
Because you don't care. You're talking about your posture has to be right.

Shelby Craig (52:11):
Yeah. You have to use it like any tool, you use it to the best of your ability, but don't throw it in there because you don't have enough time or you've put it off, da da da. Anything that revolves around the decision to not care about what you're doing. 'cause someone who cares about what they're doing doesn't handball the problem to somebody else. They take it on.

Stew Redwine (52:28):
Exactly. So it's three Cs, create craft and care. And would you say that that creates performance optimization? For sure. Okay. So with that said, it's three CC three po. This is max C3 po.

Shelby Craig (52:44):
<laugh>. I love how you link everything back to Star War.

Stew Redwine (52:46):
I just, it's doing the best I could and I think we can end on that happy feeling. So C3 po, you're gonna create craft and care for performance optimization. So thank you for bringing Star Wars into it. Look at that. We collaborated. Exactly. Made it better. <laugh>. I think we did and I'm glad you did too. <laugh>.

Shelby Craig (53:06):
I think you need to make a little poster with C3 PO and make one of those motivational office posters

Stew Redwine (53:11):
Completely.

Shelby Craig (53:11):
Did you have C3 po? Like on a walk? Eh? Great craft care above, you said.

Stew Redwine (53:15):
That's it. So Shelby, thank you so much. Where can people interact and find out more about

Shelby Craig (53:19):
You? I have two websites. One for my business and one for myself. The the first one is i'm shelby.com. So I am, and then Shelby like the car. And then the other website is the think truck.com. So like think Tank. But truck is, trucks are more fun.

Stew Redwine (53:36):
You are the Think truck. Thank you very much. Thanks again, Shelby. I'm so glad we were able to do this episode in person Meet in person.

Shelby Craig (53:43):
I'm grateful for the opportunity and yeah, really pumped to actually finally meet you and be here together. <laugh> not meet you, but yeah, to be face to face is still important.

Stew Redwine (53:53):
Oh, it's so important. That's a way to show you care.

Shelby Craig (53:56):
Exactly.

Stew Redwine (53:56):
So thank you for caring and yeah, I'll end with that. I'll say for you creatives that are listening to Chief Audio officers that are listening, Shelby, Hayden. Craig has always done practice what he preaches. Never let me down. And I know because he practices craft, because he creates and puts in the time and he cares that the work is always really good, is great work. So thank you Shelby. You're very welcome. Thank you. That's a wrap on another episode of Add Infinitum. And for you chief audio officers that are listening, remember there's no magic button. It's all about caring. To get to the meaningful work, remember to visit magellan.ai/add infinitum to sign up for a free demo. Thank you for listening and remember to have fun making the ads work.